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Jepsen: YugaByte DB 1.1.9

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Re: Jepsen: YugaByte DB 1.1.9

#31

Post by jimktrains2 »

marknadal wrote: post #30
jimktrains2 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm thourghly confused by your association of (a)GPL and commercial and calling apach/bad licenses more open. AGPL ensures that users always retain the 4 freedoms, by restricting developers. BSD allows developers to do whatever, including restricting the users. Neither is "more open", they both make trade offs and neither is comparable to proprietary except to say the BSD style licences allow for it if the developer…

I believe we both have reasonable arguments from our paradigm, it is just the paradigms have conflicting definitions. When people who share camp with me say "Open" or "Freedom" we mean Free Speech AND Free Beer. Where the disagreement happens is on Free Speech: There are many people/governments that define Free Speech as "Free Speech as long as someone does not shout 'fire' in a crowded room." This is the spirit of (…

I feel like your "fire" and "totalitarian" examples are confusing, entirely off-base and non-illustrative of anything useful to this conversation.

Why? Because the difference between copyleft and non-copyleft licenses isn't akin to censorship vs no-censorship. The argument for the copyleft is more akin to the arguments for laws in general: someone's absolute freedoms needs to be troddened on to have a free society.

I similarly fail to see how a copyleft is a power to abuse. Surely the ability to close the source of an application has more power that can be abused?

Re: Jepsen: YugaByte DB 1.1.9

#32

Post by marknadal »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #31
marknadal wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe we both have reasonable arguments from our paradigm, it is just the paradigms have conflicting definitions. When people who share camp with me say "Open" or "Freedom" we mean Free Speech AND Free Beer. Where the disagreement happens is on Free Speech: There are many people/governments that define Free Speech as "Free Speech as long as someone does not shout 'fire' in a crowded room." This is the spirit of (…

I feel like your "fire" and "totalitarian" examples are confusing, entirely off-base and non-illustrative of anything useful to this conversation. Why? Because the difference between copyleft and non-copyleft licenses isn't akin to censorship vs no-censorship. The argument for the copyleft is more akin to the arguments for laws in general: someone's absolute freedoms needs to be troddened on to have a free society. I…

Your 2nd paragraph says pretty much what I was trying to say (except for difference in law views) that your 1st paragraph says is off-base.

Another way for me to say it is, that of course you would think my thoughts are off-base since I come from a different foundational base as you. I was just trying to explain the difference itself, not saying that you need to change views (your view is logical from your "base").

You think people's freedoms need to be trodden upon for a free society.

I don't. That scares me and many others.

Edit: I did not downvote you, just FYI, I don't know who/why would.

Re: Jepsen: YugaByte DB 1.1.9

#33

Post by jimktrains2 »

marknadal wrote: post #32
jimktrains2 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like your "fire" and "totalitarian" examples are confusing, entirely off-base and non-illustrative of anything useful to this conversation. Why? Because the difference between copyleft and non-copyleft licenses isn't akin to censorship vs no-censorship. The argument for the copyleft is more akin to the arguments for laws in general: someone's absolute freedoms needs to be troddened on to have a free society. I…

Your 2nd paragraph says pretty much what I was trying to say (except for difference in law views) that your 1st paragraph says is off-base. Another way for me to say it is, that of course you would think my thoughts are off-base since I come from a different foundational base as you. I was just trying to explain the difference itself, not saying that you need to change views (your view is logical from your "base"). Y…

> You think people's freedoms need to be trodden upon for a free society.

Do you take this stance with laws against murder and theft? Society has laws and rules. People as a whole, as all available examples show, do not optimize for the greater good by default and without any rules or norms.

There are good talking points to the copyleft debate, but that copyleft imposes rules and non-copleft doesn't is false and doesn't move this debate forward in any meaningful way.

Re: Jepsen: YugaByte DB 1.1.9

#35

Post by Jupe »

robterrell wrote: post #28

Not a comment on YugeByte, but... I love it when a new Jepsen report get released. Kyle Kingsbury has single-handedly raised the bar on an entire industry. (Well, not single-handedly anymore, but still.)

Couldn't agree more. There are 3 sources of information regarding database serializability/linearizability:

1. Marketing material (mostly useless)

2. Individual projects/post-mortems (50/50 here; some just mis-use the technology from the get-go, others have valid feedback, but it's tough to determine when either applies)

3. Jepsen Tests (which is more like independently verifiable science)

Sure, you can decide that your social-media solution has no need for consistency (or even durability!) - but in my experience, most solutions don't have that flexibility.

Re: Jepsen: YugaByte DB 1.1.9

#36

Post by acubel23 »

danburkert wrote: post #34

Does YugaByte still use the Raft and HybridTime implementations from Apache Kudu? If so, how relevant are these results for Kudu?

Yes, it does. At the core, the raft implementation is still based on kudu's. But, these areas have been worked on actively so the implementations might has diverged a little.

May be worth looking through the individual issues to see what applies and what doesn't:

https://github.com/YugaByte/yugabyte-db/projects/11

Re: Jepsen: YugaByte DB 1.1.9

#37

Post by truth_seeker »

manigandham wrote: post #17
truth_seeker wrote: post #4

Is it also tested against ScyllaDB ? ScyllaDB could be up to 10x performant than Cassandra as backend storage.

Yugabyte doesn't use Cassandra, it's a custom-built database using RocksDB as a key/value layer and with an internal document-store representation. It offers access to the data in multiple interfaces: Redis, Cassandra CQL and now PostgreSQL.

Thanks for clarification.

Re: Jepsen: YugaByte DB 1.1.9

#38

Post by kmuthukk »

danburkert wrote: post #34

Does YugaByte still use the Raft and HybridTime implementations from Apache Kudu? If so, how relevant are these results for Kudu?

I wanted to add a few details to the previous reply.

While the Raft/HybridTime implementation has its roots in Apache Kudu the results will NOT be quite applicable to Kudu. Aside from the fact that the code base has evolved/diverged over the 3+ years, there are key/relevant areas (ones very relevant to these Jepsen tests) where YugaByte DB has added capabilities or follows a different design than Kudu. For example:

-- Leader Leases: YugaByte DB doesn't use Raft consensus for reads. Instead, we have implemented "leader leases" to ensure safety in allowing reads to be served from a tablet's Raft leader.

-- Distributed/Multi-Shard Transactions: YugaByte DB uses a home grown (https://docs.yugabyte.com/latest/architecture/transactions/t...) protocol based on two-phase commit across multiple Raft groups. Capabilities like secondary indexes, multi-row updates use multi-shard transactions.

-- Allowing online/dynamic Raft membership changes so that tablets can be moved (such as for load-balancing to new nodes).

regards Kannan (Co-founder @ YugaByte)

Re: Jepsen: YugaByte DB 1.1.9

#39

Post by gigatexal »

gigatexal wrote: post #27
spullara wrote: post #19

Since it doesn't support serializable transactions I'm not sure why FoundationDB would be mentioned as a comparison in the write up. The operations it does support seem to set the bar pretty low as to what to test. edit: good reply by the founder of YugaByte but for some reason the comment is dead. I have noticed that when founders don't have an account on here and then something comes up where they need to reply the…

We use cockroachDB in production and before that we were on MySQL and as of yet we don’t have a specific usecase where we use serializable transactions. Snapshot isolation or even read committed is just fine. So I don’t think it’s absolutely necessary

To be clear there’s no way around serializable transactions in cockroachDB. We have had to adapt our monolith to it (we’re thinking of ways to make it more nimble by breaking out services etc). But the point I was making was that we had MySQL for a while and never ran into issues with its isolation levels until it stopped scaling. Instead of vitess or some other MySQL system we went with cockroach after finding vitess didn’t fit us — too complicated and too many moving parts. CockroachDB just works. Also moving to k8s adds complexity too for a monolith built and run on VMs. But so far so good. Cockroach runs fast and is performant given production queries. And ops is happy because it self heals.

Re: Jepsen: YugaByte DB 1.1.9

#40

Post by [deleted] »

acubel23 wrote: post #36
danburkert wrote: post #34

Does YugaByte still use the Raft and HybridTime implementations from Apache Kudu? If so, how relevant are these results for Kudu?

Yes, it does. At the core, the raft implementation is still based on kudu's. But, these areas have been worked on actively so the implementations might has diverged a little. May be worth looking through the individual issues to see what applies and what doesn't: https://github.com/YugaByte/yugabyte-db/projects/11

[deleted]
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