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The Priest of Abu Ghraib

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Re: The Priest of Abu Ghraib

#31

Post by jacquesm »

Topolomancer wrote: post #30
jacquesm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't care if they are convinced of the righteousness of their cause. History is rife with examples of people who were convinced of the righteousness, that does not excuse them even a little bit. > Most of us are very lucky insofar as we do not have to face such tough choices. That's why we talk about the ones who did. Since conscription in the US ended quite a while ago all of this is free choice.

Fair enough; you have given me a lot to think about---thank you! One more thing, though: I am not sure it is always that much of a free choice (even given the fact that no conscription exists). There might be economic reasons for joining the military, for example. However, since I am not a U.S. citizen, I am not sure how much of an issue this actually is.

We had conscription here back in the 80's when my number came up I refused to join the army. There was a considerable price to pay including a possible jail term but there is nothing that would cause me to go and kill/harm others without a good enough reason.

Re: The Priest of Abu Ghraib

#32

Post by azimovsky »

sunils34 wrote: post #3

This was hauntingly beautiful. A story of conscience and reconciliation with the paradoxes of war and personal spirituality/religion. His decision to join the war as an interrogator, believing his presence and oversight would ensure the humane treatment of prisoners is admirable. I often wonder what is the right thing to do: non-participation, or conscientious participation to ensure abuses are minimized.

> A story of conscience

I'm surprised you see this. I see it differently. Excuse my language, but I see a horse-shit sandwich. Have you read any Noam Chomsky? This is a great example of 'Manufacturing Consent' - through these feel good propaganda manufactured stories. Yes, I do think he believed his struggle was holy and justified. Yes, I am aware that this sounds harsh.

For an honest confrontation with our very real Global North shadow watch this: https://vimeo.com/242569435

Re: The Priest of Abu Ghraib

#33

Post by azimovsky »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #29
azimovsky wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn Our collective unconscious, our collective shadow: https://vimeo.co…

Funny that you would quote Solzhenitsyn, who in the last years of his life went hard-core Russian nationalist extremist and indeed called for separating certain people from the rest of us and destroying them (only this time it would be a “Christian state” doing the destroying, and not the godless USSR, so it would all be OK).

This is exactly what I think he is trying to say - and of course he is no exception to this rule. Are you equating his behavior with him being a failure, discrediting his work? This angle is a bit too black and white / dualistic for me.

Re: The Priest of Abu Ghraib

#34

Post by CharlesColeman »

pvaldes wrote: post #26
simonh wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This person was an interrogator. Should armies not interrogate prisoners and not have interrogators? Is trying to obtain intelligence information from the enemy an inherently evil activity? If it is not, then yes it's better to have good people do this job than bad ones, as with any job.

In this case, yes, it was clearly evil. The videos speak volumes. There is not such thing as "good" people raping, torturing, humiliating, terrorizing and doing evil things to other helpless and disarmed people.

> There is not such thing as "good" people raping, torturing, humiliating, terrorizing and doing evil things to other helpless and disarmed people.

There's no indication that he directly participated in any of that, and quite a bit to indicate he didn't. After all, he was heading towards pacifism before he was deployed, and became so disillusions that he was honorably discharged as a conscientious objector. I wouldn't be surprised if the people doing those evil things were careful to hide those activities from him. He seems like the kind of person who'd have caused problems for them, and they probably understood that.

Re: The Priest of Abu Ghraib

#35

Post by azimovsky »

azimovsky wrote: post #32
sunils34 wrote: post #3

This was hauntingly beautiful. A story of conscience and reconciliation with the paradoxes of war and personal spirituality/religion. His decision to join the war as an interrogator, believing his presence and oversight would ensure the humane treatment of prisoners is admirable. I often wonder what is the right thing to do: non-participation, or conscientious participation to ensure abuses are minimized.

> A story of conscience I'm surprised you see this. I see it differently. Excuse my language, but I see a horse-shit sandwich. Have you read any Noam Chomsky? This is a great example of 'Manufacturing Consent' - through these feel good propaganda manufactured stories. Yes, I do think he believed his struggle was holy and justified. Yes, I am aware that this sounds harsh. For an honest confrontation with our very real…

Wow I did not read the whole article. But's it's actually pretty moving... Ok fuck it. I'm going to do a pluralist 'both/and'. It's both a horse-shit sandwich and a story of conscience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5xfBtD6rLY&vl=en

Re: The Priest of Abu Ghraib

#36

Post by wespiser_2018 »

War is hell. Such a beautiful story of being true to your self and finding your war through the anger and confusion of everything that influences us. Such a loss we lost this man, and many others like him, to environmental and chemical exposure issues in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Re: The Priest of Abu Ghraib

#37

Post by stefantalpalaru »

Fascinating transition from the banality of evil to the suffering of the invader and the messianic journey of a religious fanatic who volunteered to go abroad to help spread death and destruction.

This piece of propaganda would be too unbelievable for something like "The Man in the High Castle" - fiction, unlike reality, needs internal consistency.

Re: The Priest of Abu Ghraib

#38

Post by Topolomancer »

jacquesm wrote: post #31
Topolomancer wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough; you have given me a lot to think about---thank you! One more thing, though: I am not sure it is always that much of a free choice (even given the fact that no conscription exists). There might be economic reasons for joining the military, for example. However, since I am not a U.S. citizen, I am not sure how much of an issue this actually is.

We had conscription here back in the 80's when my number came up I refused to join the army. There was a considerable price to pay including a possible jail term but there is nothing that would cause me to go and kill/harm others without a good enough reason.

Interesting! I admire the strength of your moral conviction! Having grown up in a generation without conscription (I did not even have a normal military service, thankfully).

Re: The Priest of Abu Ghraib

#39

Post by jacquesm »

Topolomancer wrote: post #38
jacquesm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had conscription here back in the 80's when my number came up I refused to join the army. There was a considerable price to pay including a possible jail term but there is nothing that would cause me to go and kill/harm others without a good enough reason.

Interesting! I admire the strength of your moral conviction! Having grown up in a generation without conscription (I did not even have a normal military service, thankfully).

Mine was one of the last years that it was still active.

Re: The Priest of Abu Ghraib

#40

Post by Viliam1234 »

azimovsky wrote: post #17
dpeck wrote: post #5

The notion that its better to have "good" people doing bad things than "bad" people is such a trash take, but it shows up in nearly every conversation of moral consequence these days.

“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn Our collective unconscious, our collective shadow: https://vimeo.co…

After reading Solzhenitsyn, I was surprised to learn that these famous words are actually taken out of context.

The full idea is something like this: There are no "purely good" people, the best we can see is part-good-part-evil, and thus improving the world requires an internal battle, but... people can actually become "purely evil", and the usual path is through ideology, when you simply decide that anything you do serves a goal that justifies the means, and then you feel free to become a cartoonish villain as long as you follow the ideology.

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