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Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

theatlantic.com

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Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#31

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

Pay me enough and I will learn how to replace an escalator.

Once you get a license, it will pay about $125/hour. Four year apprenticeship first, though. There is a general shortage of elevator mechanics, so go for it.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming that the world is well ordered and that all things will balance like that, but it isn't. People don't see those jobs as options, they aren't even aware of the opportunities, and there is social stigma against being in the trades. Even if you make a nice living in the trades, you will take a hit to your social identity, making you less attractive to others. That's how toxic our culture is right now. P…

> And we are going to collapse because of it. It's not that bad.

When we are electing the president by the same principle, I assure you that it is even worse than you can imagine. Societal collapse is imminent. Those who are comforted by their station in life always think they are living in a utopia. You are surrounded by fake smiles adorning people forced into subservience. At one time the myth that hard work and dedication would pay off in the end kept people in line, the "american dream" they called it. Now that myth has been tempered by reality, watching the last generation work all their lives with many having little to their names and no security is what looms over the current generation. We know it's a lie. That lie was keeping things together. We are heading into an age of great civil brawling fueled by immense economic pressure caused by corruption on all fronts.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#33

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

> Maybe more people should go into the trades - and not be funneled into higher education. We desperately need better infrastructure, more housing, tangible things. Not everyone is cut out for college. This is a common line of argument, but you will find that many tradesmen hope their children will go to college and get office jobs. The trades are hard on the body. Some trades are hazardous. An injury or medical prob…

I don't disagree, so this is my opinion on how that reality reconciles against how the world needs to work for us to enjoy comfort and prosperity.

Rule of thumb for depreciation is about 2-5% of an asset decays each year and if it isn't maintained the whole thing will need to be replaced every 20-50 years. Some things defy that rule, but most things need repairs. If we live in a world where going into the trades that build and maintain everything is not considered a first-class job that allows a worker to make a first-class contribution then that is a problem.

Rather than spending money on funneling students away from the trades, money should be spent improving the OH&S outcomes of tradespeople and improving their access to tools. If someone is umming and aahing about doing a trade or becoming a social media expert, they should be able to rationally see trades as the more worthwhile job for themselves and others (obviously unless they have a real flair for social media).

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#34
> From kindergarten on, students spend thousands of hours studying subjects irrelevant to the modern labor market. Why do English classes focus on literature and poetry instead of business and technical writing?

uggggh this, this market-driven bullshit that assumes "business" should be the end goal of all human behavior

English classes focus on literature and poetry because maybe you should have some sense of beauty, because you should have some vague idea of what a good fucking sentence looks like instead of just learning to write the abominable circumlocutions of this year's dialect of Business English. Because maybe reading stories about people in interesting moral dilemmas can help us think about how we'd react in a similar situation and be able to say "hey wait I am starting to act like that asshole in that one book, it sure didn't end well for her, okay what else can I try then".

Because part of the job of education is to pass on a culture to the next generation along with raw knowledge.

> Why do advanced-math classes bother with proofs almost no student can follow? When will the typical student use history?

What's the old saw about people who don't learn history? They're doomed to repeat it? Do you really want kids making the same mistakes your parents made, because they didn't see any of the results? "Oh hey let's vote for this obvious confidence man for the lulz, what's the worst that could happen", one year later we have literal fucking Nazi groups rallying in the streets?

uuuggggghhh yes let's all just learn exactly what we need to learn to be useful to some big corporate entity, let's learn nothing that will make us ever question its inhuman, amoral, profit-first motives, I am sure this will have absolutely no problems whatsoever.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#35

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

Pay me enough and I will learn how to replace an escalator.

Sorry, a key aspect to any "labor crisis" is that you can't be paid very much. I mean, do you think that as one of the 10 escalator technicians in your city, you should be paid as well as one of the 500 doctors? Doctors are very important people.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay me enough and I will learn how to replace an escalator.

Once you get a license, it will pay about $125/hour. Four year apprenticeship first, though. There is a general shortage of elevator mechanics, so go for it.

And how many hours of the day can I actually do that. $125/hour sounds real nice until you factor in the fact that most of these jobs have very inconsistent workloads so you could spend 5 hours working one day and then have no work next week or have to spend a day fixing a mistake for free.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#37
post #18

The key problem I think, with higher education, is that we force students to take classes in the name of liberal education. If no one is required to take a class, then students might not take that class, which leads to that professor's usefulness, and perhaps career, coming into question. If anything universities are increasing not only the number of classes a student has to take, but also increasing seemingly-pointl…

A professor's usefulness is their research. Teaching is an added benefit for the public. Universities are not trade schools.

Not all universities are primarily research institutions. And I think you'll find that the majority of courses are taught by adjuncts or TAs who are being paid exclusively to teach.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#38

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

Only if allow colleges to give "degrees" in Escalation Technology. The problem these days is that students want "cool" titles and do not wish to do the hard work. Who will work in hot sun fixing escalators when one could get a fancy degree in "gender studies" and argue on which bathroom should be used by transgender male who feels like women on even days ?

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#39
post #11

Make college available for everyone for free, but make asking for and talking about degrees illegal in job interviews. Force employers to actually vet people for what they know and can do and not force otherwise capable people to jump through expensive hoops to display pseudo-signals. Not only will we be able to help people improve their skills as a society, but I bet college enrollment goes down across the board bec…

> Force employers to actually vet people for what they know and can do How do you propose to do that? At least with developers you can make the candidate do some toy project or whiteboard but that process is woefully flawed and controversial. That’s tech, but what if you’re hiring for something more abstract, like Human Resources or sales? What if you just need a person who can learn quickly and is easy to work with?…

> make hiring and firing much easier, so you can quickly end a relationship that’s not definitely not working.

Firing is already pretty darn easy in most states. At will employment is pretty much designed to accomplish that.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay me enough and I will learn how to replace an escalator.

Once you get a license, it will pay about $125/hour. Four year apprenticeship first, though. There is a general shortage of elevator mechanics, so go for it.

> Once you get a license, it will pay about $125/hour.

Billed $125/hr while actively working on a particular job, or a sure $125/hr for 2000 hours a year?

The amount you bill pays for your downtime, too.

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