Live data from Hacker News

The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

kirkcenter.org

31–40 of 43 posts

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#31
post #25
post #9

As a fan of Fisher, it's interesting to read an open-minded review of his work from someone on the right. But the bit about Islam can't be left unchallenged. The reviewer says: >>> I would not claim that Islam is monolithically malign, of course, but someone less constrained by their unconscious sense of ideological appropriateness would ask why interpretations of the faith lead people towards evangelistic violence a…

we still have Christians practicing evangelistic violence Did you not notice the terms "so much more" ? That sounds like a quantitative argument, not a qualitative one. Can I invite you to reflect on how to refute/confirm quantitative arguments, and then to consult the quantitative distribution of violence, in, say, the last 100 years, of Christians, Bahais, Shiks, Bhuddists, or Zoroastrians and Islam.

Since this account appears to be using HN exclusively for ideological battle, we've banned it. That's not what this site is for, as the guidelines explain:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. Primarily that means doing what serves intellectual curiosity, rather than what destroys it.

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#32

This piece exhibits the usual problem of using words and expression so abstract or vague that anyone reading it can pour in the undetstanding ones wants. People discussing will often disagree because they have different take on simple words. Just i the opening two paragraphs I can mention: "cultural and political theorist", "censorious moralism", "Poshleft moralisers", "kangaroo courts", "structural critique", "inspi…

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

There's lots of other stuff to read: https://news.ycombinator.com/front

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#33
post #20

> I would not claim that Islam is monolithically malign, of course, but someone less constrained by their unconscious sense of ideological appropriateness would ask why interpretations of the faith lead people towards evangelistic violence and puritanical tyranny so much more than interpretations of other faiths. After WWII and decolonisation, a new breed of educated, progressive and secular leaders arose across form…

That phrase bothered me for a different reason - namely, the role of Christian evangelism in western imperialism. Christianity became a key justification for the racism and orientalism necessary to justify the imperialism, the idea that enlightened Christian Europeans were going to save the ignorant savages and degenerate oriental kingdoms from themselves. Without the racism and orientalism, imperialist ambitions become too morally difficult to maintain.

So I don't think the problem is Islam, or even Christianity. I think the problem is the political usefulness of evangelical religions.

Of course, the horror we talk about when talking about the violent nature of Islam is "terrorism"... which is, really, just a form of asymmetric warfare, all that's available when one side has tremendous military superiority. If the armies were more equal, the situation would be different.

This is actually related to another minor gripe I have about Mark Fisher. He talks a lot of the problems of left-wing online activism, and he's right, but the problem as it stands today isn't a new flaw of the left (this thinking has always been around, as he has noted). Rather, it's that the internet and social media make it so easy to be a mob. The right-wing Twittersphere is as bad as the left, and uses much the same tactics. The correct answer is for us to stay off of social media...

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a big difference between Christianity and Islam is that in the west Christianity has been around (or at least more dominant) much longer. I think this has two effects: 1. People are more used to it, and likely less aware of the flaws it has (or might have, as this is in the eye of the beholder). This may lead to people to make claim X, Y, Z about Islam, forgetting that this may have applied in the past (or st…

2. Is a complete inversion of history. “Western ways” were derived from Christian values, not the other way around. The value of charity, the importance of justice, care for the poor, days of rest and of work, the value of children—all of these are not things the West valued or understood in the same way prior to Christianity. The concept of “the West” is inextricable from Christian values and the evolutions of the r…

It's not so much that Christianity is the source of justice, hard work, and loving children as that Christianity claims to be the source of these things.

And, since Christianity is inextricable from European imperialism, those "values" were used to claim moral superiority to other cultures, in order to justify the pillage. Because other cultures clearly don't care about justice or work or children, right? Right.

Your inversion can itself be inverted. The success of Christianity is arguably derived from European political power - first the Romans, and then the colonialist explosion across the globe that started with Spain in the New World (closely followed by England, Holland, and France), which was a result of technological advantages, not moral ones. Without colonialism, Christianity would be merely an also-ran religion confined to a European backwater.

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#35
post #2

Do checkout "Capitalist Realism: Is There No Alternative?", It's a concise book that talks about capitalism and its effects on culture and public thought. I haven't read lost futures yet but I found this really good video discussing Mark's idea by Cuck Philosophy called "Hauntology, Lost Futures and 80s Nostalgia" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSvUqhZcbVg

One thing that recently made me immediately recall the book was a story I read about "fake influencers", that is people who go on holidays, but pretend to be paid social media influencers to prop up their own instagram channels and whatnot to appear successful.

This seemed so absurd to me that I had to think of the Soviet joke about the workers "pretending to work while the bosses pretend to pay". And it struck me as sad but also funny that we are entering a stage of economic development, that for an increasing number of workers, looks more like a giant collective inside joke than actual meaningful or genuine labour.

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#36
I dunno.

Every time I try to read these sort of discussions, typically from the left but also just as typically from the right, I'm left with the impression that the author believes that there are Good People and there are Bad People. The Good People are oppressed or misled by the Bad People, who are overtly or covertly, consciously or unconsciously, acting for their own benefit, whether that benefit is defined economically, socially, morally, or psychologically. The author argues, or just simply assumes, that if everyone, who are obviously Good People, would put on the author's revolution's uniforms or at least act according to the author's dictates or suggestions or hints, everything would be good and wonderful, full of rainbows and butterflies, with egalitarianism and respect for all the Good People and the Bad People taught the error of their ways so that they became Good People. (Or at least put up against a wall and shot.)

The problem is, and I'm an old man and can say this from experience, that the whole argument, right from its assumptions, is a load of horse shit. There are no Good People. They don't exist. Or maybe they do exist, but they're like those fairies also called "Good People"; you call them that to prevent them from souring your milk and killing your goats. In actual fact, there are only Bad People. They're everywhere. That person you think is a good person? They're a Bad Person. It's Bad People all the way down.

You know the neoliberal left, that everybody hates and is clearly in the wrong in all situations? They weren't always the powerful political war-horse they are now. (One could argue that they aren't a powerful political war-horse now, but that's neither here nor there.) The Baby Boomers? They learned identity politics because they had to. They were begat into a time when your race or manner of speech or the shape of your nose defined a significant fraction of your destiny. Without them, the whole but it's really about economic inequality and opportunities or whatever would be laughably, pointlessly, silly: simply none of it would apply if you were black, female, Hispanic, southern European, a new immigrant, eastern European (I had to laugh at one Neo-Nazi a while back; judging by his name and look, he was a Slav. If you can't find irony in a Slavic Neo-Nazi, you've missed the whole boat.)...

And yet, the Baby Boomers are indeed rat bastards.

Have you heard of the Liberal's Lament? "Last guys don't finish nice." Those most in need of help are the least likely to look like they deserve it. Those miners and factory workers that the old-timey traditional liberals fought so hard for? Racist and sexist as fuck. Sure, some of the leaders believed, or at least acted, in equality across the skin-tones, but most didn't and the rabble were all rabble. They aren't all going to rise, phoenix-like, Eminem-like, and become wonders and paragons.

And so, whenever I see something about some group, left, right, or center, just needing a little reform or revolution to really fix things right, I am going to ask, "What will go wrong?" Because it ain't going to go right. It will end up badly, even if it succeeds, at least according to the next generation.

Sigh.

Cynically,

mcguire

"You do it. I'm bitter."

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The critiques are similar insofar as they are both critiques, but differ vastly in their content. Mark Fisher, and the 'traditional left's' critique of neoliberal identity politics calls for a centering of class -- that is the power relations inherent in capital modes of production. This, many would argue is not an identity, but a _material position_: a specific stance or relationship to the productive forces in soci…

If you look at political history, the jokingly made Fish Hook Theory is more valid than the Horse Shoe. https://i.redd.it/ipw1tkw2v06z.png

This is just a dishonest way to say "If you're not with us, you're against us!" and I think we all know where that leads.

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#38
post #2

Do checkout "Capitalist Realism: Is There No Alternative?", It's a concise book that talks about capitalism and its effects on culture and public thought. I haven't read lost futures yet but I found this really good video discussing Mark's idea by Cuck Philosophy called "Hauntology, Lost Futures and 80s Nostalgia" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSvUqhZcbVg

Of course recommended reading on capitalism's effects on culture and thought are the works of Adorno and Horkheimer, and Marcuse - who seems to have fallen a little out of favor but his work is as important as it was in the 60s.

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#39
post #2

Do checkout "Capitalist Realism: Is There No Alternative?", It's a concise book that talks about capitalism and its effects on culture and public thought. I haven't read lost futures yet but I found this really good video discussing Mark's idea by Cuck Philosophy called "Hauntology, Lost Futures and 80s Nostalgia" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSvUqhZcbVg

Thanks for recommending this, I picked up a copy and love it so far.

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#40
post #2

Do checkout "Capitalist Realism: Is There No Alternative?", It's a concise book that talks about capitalism and its effects on culture and public thought. I haven't read lost futures yet but I found this really good video discussing Mark's idea by Cuck Philosophy called "Hauntology, Lost Futures and 80s Nostalgia" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSvUqhZcbVg

Thanks for recommending this, I picked up a copy and love it so far.

You're welcome, I'm so happy that you bought it. If you liked the book, do checkout that youtube link I shared as well.
Post reply on HN