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Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

nytimes.com

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Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#31

Post by pastor_elm »

kylec wrote: post #29

I don't think anyone seriously thinks that learning a computer language is in any way equivalent to learning a foreign language. But it is useful to pretend that it does, so that we don't have to ask the real question: Should everyone be required to study a foreign language in school? My answer is no. I took a year of Latin in high school and hated it, and have never thought about it since. It was a huge waste of tim…

Most classes are a waste of time in one way or another. Do we really need to know chemistry, physics, arbitrarily selected bits of history? No. We learn about language because it is important to human culture.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#32

Post by simiones »

droithomme wrote: post #2

Computer languages are called languages for a reason. They have syntax, grammar, vocabulary, and are used for communication. People who don't speak english for example but who read python can often read code you wrote and understand it. Math is a similar thing and sometimes called a universal language. These are different sorts of languages from day to day spoken and written languages for general communication, but t…

> Computer languages are called languages for a reason. They have syntax, grammar, vocabulary, and are used for communication.

Perhaps, but they are vastly simpler than even the most basic human language; and far, far more limited in what they can communicate without resorting to another language.

> People who don't speak english for example but who read python can often read code you wrote and understand it.

That's extremely unlikely to be true - they could perhaps say if it has certain properties, but it is almost impossible to understand what a piece of code is meant to do without understanding any of the identifiers, unless it's doing something very abstract (e.g. you can understand what "def id(x): return x" does if you know some Python and nothing else; but you can't probably understand what "def cumÎlStrigă(om): return om.poreclă" is meant to do if you understand Python but not Romanian).

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#33

Post by faceplanted »

dragonwriter wrote: post #12
semitext wrote: post #11

My understanding is that the younger you are the easier it is to pick up a foreign language. Whereas that doesn't appear to be the case for computer languages. Learning either creates opportunities for life changing opportunities for the better, but I think it would be a mistake for people to forego learning a foreign language at that age. If they want to learn programming languages as well they will, but I know lots…

> My understanding is that the younger you are the easier it is to pick up a foreign language. IIRC, while that's long been a popular belief, it's not all that clear that it's true; a major effect, if not the whole effect, comes from it being easier to spend more time on it when younger. This portion of the effect is equally true of computer languages.

Based on my understanding, children have a much easier time for several reasons, none of which are inherent to being children, but are extremely common among children, specifically.

* Massive amounts of input data (Just all over the place) * Involuntary immersion (Your parents can just choose not to speak to you in your first language, a shop teacher can't) * Contextual examples (people very clearly pointing at things and labelling stuff when they use language) * 1 on 1 tutelage (This one is super important and extremely expensive for adults)

An adult given this situation willingly will learn a language extremely quickly.

The biggest argument against young people learning languages more easily than adults is the learning outcomes of children without bilingual parents in school language classes.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#35

Post by jhbadger »

tjr wrote: post #18
wallflower wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the “critical period” hypothesis is not proven, language acquisition is an automatic process for almost every human child, given that they are in an environment where they are being spoken to. Also, recent research suggests that the ability to differentiate sounds of a certain language rapidly narrows after a child leaves the baby stage. > By 10 to 12 months, however, monolingual babies were no longer detecting…

I feel like I could pretty easily be fluent in more natural languages if, as with programming languages, "fluency" included being able to look things up in reference manuals, and if my expression of the language was limited to reading and writing, rather than listening and speaking.

That's actually how classical languages (Latin, Ancient Greek, Babylonian, etc.) are generally taught. Even professional classicists are generally not expected to speak their ancient tongues and using dictionaries are par for the course for making translations.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#36

Post by fao_ »

kylec wrote: post #29

I don't think anyone seriously thinks that learning a computer language is in any way equivalent to learning a foreign language. But it is useful to pretend that it does, so that we don't have to ask the real question: Should everyone be required to study a foreign language in school? My answer is no. I took a year of Latin in high school and hated it, and have never thought about it since. It was a huge waste of tim…

Latin isn't a living language, though.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#38

Post by kylec »

fao_ wrote: post #36
kylec wrote: post #29

I don't think anyone seriously thinks that learning a computer language is in any way equivalent to learning a foreign language. But it is useful to pretend that it does, so that we don't have to ask the real question: Should everyone be required to study a foreign language in school? My answer is no. I took a year of Latin in high school and hated it, and have never thought about it since. It was a huge waste of tim…

Latin isn't a living language, though.

It satisfied the foreign language requirement

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#39

Post by ken »

kylec wrote: post #29

I don't think anyone seriously thinks that learning a computer language is in any way equivalent to learning a foreign language. But it is useful to pretend that it does, so that we don't have to ask the real question: Should everyone be required to study a foreign language in school? My answer is no. I took a year of Latin in high school and hated it, and have never thought about it since. It was a huge waste of tim…

I once took a summer class in Latin and Greek, and it was one of the most useful classes I've ever taken. Half of English is based on Latin roots. It's like a programmer getting the source code to the standard library. Everything got easier.

In real life, knowing a little Latin has been way more useful than the years of German I took to fulfill graduation requirements.

Big German words are made of little German words. Big Japanese words are made of little Japanese words. Big English words are mostly made of Latin. I'm surprised Latin isn't part of the standard English curriculum.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#40

Post by entee »

kylec wrote: post #29

I don't think anyone seriously thinks that learning a computer language is in any way equivalent to learning a foreign language. But it is useful to pretend that it does, so that we don't have to ask the real question: Should everyone be required to study a foreign language in school? My answer is no. I took a year of Latin in high school and hated it, and have never thought about it since. It was a huge waste of tim…

As someone who grew up bilingual, I think knowing another language has been invaluable to how I approach and understand the world. I disagree (fully acknowledging my bias) that learning another language is a waste of time.

However, I think high school is too late. Most people I knew in HS that started learning another language weren't super invested and didn't learn it. Not to mention that it's really hard to do at 14-18. I think kindergarden-5th grade should have the option and encouragement to be bilingual though. At that point it's remarkably easier to pick up, and I think it would increase cross-cultural awareness and empathy, a trait that seems in decline recently.

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