The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College • Hacker News Board

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#31

Post by ngngngng » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

I'm a successful college dropout, and I completely disagree. One of the strongest motivators for me leaving school after 1 year was the realization that virtually all of my classes gave me no more benefit than if I had just purchased the textbook and read it myself. As for every other classroom benefit, there are brilliant mentors all over the internet I can discuss what i'm learning with whenever I choose, without having to pay tuition.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#32

Post by CodeCube » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 4:21 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #15

sandworm101 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between the rise of youtube, the porn industry, "peak" TV and the constant stream of CGI-based movies, there is plenty of work in video production. A degree doesn't really matter, but knowing how to use the tools does. Whether you get hands on the tools at a university or a college isn't an issue.

All of those examples have razor thin margins in the overwhelming majority of cases which translates to not actually paying that great for everyone involved. It's like acting. Few will people make big bucks. Ever wonder why "professional amatuer" porn is such a large share of the market? Less people to pay. Most Youtube channels that have actual costs per episode (e.g. every time Demolition Ranch mag dumps the Barret…

hah! didn't expect to see a reference to Demolition Ranch here :D

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#33

Post by isoskeles » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

> Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people...

Not trying to be too argumentative here, but if the implication you're making is that university is the best way "to get an expansive view of human knowledge", I disagree. You are correct that it is not "accessible" to many people, but an expansive view of human knowledge is, IMO, more accessible than ever in history.

An internet connection costs a lot less than university. The biggest problem with this is: how does a person figure out what to self-learn? To me it might be obvious to just start going through math problems and reading 'the classics', but I guess a person could just as easily start learning conspiracy theories or celebrity trivia.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#34

Post by jteppinette » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

If students are coming out of 12 years of general education needing more general education, that is a failure of the public school system. We should fix that instead of pushing people into more school. After 12 years of general education, how do you justify more?

In my opinion, we should be pushing specialized education at a younger age. When students exit high school, they should have skills that they can expand or fallback on. They can then use that fallback as a safety net to explore other options without extreme risk or debt.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#35

Post by hockeybias » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

A few decades ago I graduated with a BFA and Business minor from a small liberal arts school and then went to a six month 'boot camp' for COBOL a few years later.

I L O V E the fact that I was fortunate enough to do both. I feel that my liberal arts background makes my life so much richer.

One of my sons graduated from BC with a Computer Science degree. I think the combo platter of CS degree from an excellent liberal arts school is best of both worlds. If you can do it, do it!

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#36

Post by vonmoltke » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #27

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

People going into college don't even get an expansive view of how debt works, and that's what they end college with the most of. I don't think that view is missing, I think people do not value college like they claim they do if that premise (getting an expansive view of human knowledge) is the goal. Of course that's a great goal, but its also something that should have been happening all the way to adulthood (16-18 y…

> We cannot even make high school graduation in the USA contingent on being able to read.

In what states?

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#37

Post by jefurii » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

I think parent is saying that it would be good for trade schools to include basic coursework in things like history and civics, and some arts and literature, similar to General Education requirements in a university.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#38

Post by jseliger » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer).

That's true, but have you taught college at a non-elite school lately? Have you talked to most college graduates? The Case Against Education covers these topics effectively. https://quillette.com/2018/06/03/bryan-caplans-case-educatio...

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#39

Post by CodeCube » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

ldoughty wrote: post #21

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps one reason is that job-hopping is very common in the tech industry. I wouldn't expect many apprentices to hang around long enough for there to be a payoff to the employer.

True this. I don't want to teach a high school graduate (or college grad) what interfaces and abstract classes are.. or basic good design of code. My job depends on making progress, not training. That said, my org supports up to 4 concurrent interns (typically we have 2-3 at any given point), and they could work for 4 months to 2+ years if they want, 15-40 hours/week -- adjustable for summers, etc... But they need to…

> My job depends on making progress, not training.

You could say the same thing about a professional taking an apprentice in any trade ... and yet they still take apprentices

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#40

Post by SolaceQuantum » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

cpursley wrote: post #24

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

I'm not convinced it's good for society to have adults entering it with $100,000 in student debt for a domain that any motivated individual can learn via-self study (books, MOOCS, wikipedia). Especially those that don't lead to lucrative career prospects...

As someone who both writes fiction and programs, I'd really like for some system that would support non-lucrative careers. Many famous authors recieved initial success when they were supported by others; how many more brilliant works is the world without?

Programming works similarly, I found. We'll never know how many open source projects never saw the light due to time needed to develop them, or how truly amazing currently well-regarded open source projects could've been.

These are skills that take more than self-study. They take time- time to build the skills and connections and knowledge-base. Time to explore and fail and innovate. Authors increasingly make commercially successful debut works in their late 30s and 40s because it takes that much time to develop as a writer. I find the trajectory of software development to be similar.