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Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

governor.ny.gov

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Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#31

Post by Permit »

spamizbad wrote: post #23
smallgovt wrote: post #2

I think it's sad that the vocal minority was able to alter this decision. As the letter mentions, the project would have brought $27b in revenue to the state. This magnitude of revenue is material considering the fact that the state only collected $76b in taxes in the last reported fiscal year. I think there's reason to debate whether large corps should be able to hold an auction like this, but given the place we fin…

I'm glad they dropped it. There are some grounded concerns: * Amazon is one of the most successful enterprises in human history and should not require support from taxpayers beyond their voluntary patronage of Amazon itself. * Most of these "deals" were put together secretly without input from the public. Millions (or in NY's case, billion+) of dollars were packaged and presented without community input or oversight…

> * Most of these "deals" were put together secretly without input from the public. Millions (or in NY's case, billion+) of dollars were packaged and presented without community input or oversight

> * State and local governments probably shouldn't be diverting billions of their citizen's tax revenue to lure corporations who will only impact a tiny subset of their citizenry.

I haven't been following this closely. What did New York offer Amazon that it does not offer any other company? In the linked article the author states that Amazon would have been claiming existing tax credits. Did they receive anything else (not offered to any other new businesses)?

If so, the linked article seems to be presenting the argument in bad faith.

If not, you seem to be describing the offer in bad faith.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#32

Post by jdhn »

ddebernardy wrote: post #10
graeme wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If google creates jobs in long island city, they would get the same handout though. Any company locating there does: it's a program NY state and NYC made to encourage development outside of Manhattan.

So in other words, you're suggesting that the handout was baked in from the get go because the HQ was in Queens, and Amazon being Amazon had nothing to do with it? If that's the case, the media have done a terrible job reporting this.

>the media have done a terrible job reporting this.

I believe that they've reported it the way that they wanted to. The media knows that outrage sells, and when the public is already suspicious of rich tech companies, there's no reason to accurately report the facts.

Here's a personal anecdote. My mom thought that Amazon was outright being given $3 billion to come to NYC, and said that it was unfair that they were getting the money before they hired anybody. She didn't even know that the tax credits were performance based until I told her.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#33

Post by yawboakye »

spamizbad wrote: post #23
smallgovt wrote: post #2

I think it's sad that the vocal minority was able to alter this decision. As the letter mentions, the project would have brought $27b in revenue to the state. This magnitude of revenue is material considering the fact that the state only collected $76b in taxes in the last reported fiscal year. I think there's reason to debate whether large corps should be able to hold an auction like this, but given the place we fin…

I'm glad they dropped it. There are some grounded concerns: * Amazon is one of the most successful enterprises in human history and should not require support from taxpayers beyond their voluntary patronage of Amazon itself. * Most of these "deals" were put together secretly without input from the public. Millions (or in NY's case, billion+) of dollars were packaged and presented without community input or oversight…

Amazon isn't taking money from the government. They're getting a relief of $3 billion IF they fulfill their promise. I'd take 25k-40k jobs for my people over $3 billion in taxes any day. As the director quoted the governor, the best social program is still a job.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#34

Post by Svoka »

spamizbad wrote: post #23
smallgovt wrote: post #2

I think it's sad that the vocal minority was able to alter this decision. As the letter mentions, the project would have brought $27b in revenue to the state. This magnitude of revenue is material considering the fact that the state only collected $76b in taxes in the last reported fiscal year. I think there's reason to debate whether large corps should be able to hold an auction like this, but given the place we fin…

I'm glad they dropped it. There are some grounded concerns: * Amazon is one of the most successful enterprises in human history and should not require support from taxpayers beyond their voluntary patronage of Amazon itself. * Most of these "deals" were put together secretly without input from the public. Millions (or in NY's case, billion+) of dollars were packaged and presented without community input or oversight…

What's wrong with giving Amazon billion dollar for building an office? Just to put it in perspective, lets say they would create 30000 jobs with average pay of $80000/year. That is $2.4 billion in just salaries over single year. According to random tax calculator I found online it is about 0.7 billions in taxes every year. This is crazy ROI. If I could put money which would have 70% safe yearly return that would be insanely awesome investment.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#35

Post by icelancer »

tehlike wrote: post #11
unethical_ban wrote: post #7

I understand the tragedy of the commons, cities' race to the bottom, Amazon not needing breaks, so on. I also think some of this could have been avoided if people felt like they were part of the process, instead of being told by the state "Hey we negotiated with a behemoth company for them to take over your community - trust me, you'll like it".

You cant involve public with everything, or it would lead to big overhead

For billions of dollars of tax breaks? I don't think it's asking too much. Washington State manages to have non-binding advisory votes on topics just like this without much complaint.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#36

Post by zamalek »

spamizbad wrote: post #23
smallgovt wrote: post #2

I think it's sad that the vocal minority was able to alter this decision. As the letter mentions, the project would have brought $27b in revenue to the state. This magnitude of revenue is material considering the fact that the state only collected $76b in taxes in the last reported fiscal year. I think there's reason to debate whether large corps should be able to hold an auction like this, but given the place we fin…

I'm glad they dropped it. There are some grounded concerns: * Amazon is one of the most successful enterprises in human history and should not require support from taxpayers beyond their voluntary patronage of Amazon itself. * Most of these "deals" were put together secretly without input from the public. Millions (or in NY's case, billion+) of dollars were packaged and presented without community input or oversight…

> Most of these "deals" were put together secretly without input from the public. Millions (or in NY's case, billion+) of dollars were packaged and presented without community input or oversight

The letter specifically addresses this. That $3B was effectively a loan with massive ROI.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#37

Post by alexandercrohde »

Reads as unreliable (presumably factually accurate but too motivated to be trusted as presenting a full picture).

Anybody who pretends to be thinking about "loss for the city," is full of themselves. It's all politics, and disingenuous to imply otherwise. And morally, most other areas in the country need this more than NYC does.

It sounds like the thrust of the article is "Look how stupid the decision making process was!" Well, true politics is petty and unreliable especially at large-scale. But that has no bearing on the larger issue.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#38

Post by presty »

Quote of the Day:

"The seventy percent of New Yorkers who supported Amazon and now vent their anger also bear responsibility and must learn that the silent majority should not be silent because they can lose to the vocal minority and self-interested politicians."

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#39

Post by mobilefriendly »

sokoloff wrote: post #13
deogeo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's no question this would have been a huge win for NY. But a loss for the US as a whole, assuming the HQ still gets built, but without special tax exemptions.

The overwhelming majority of the tax deals were/are available to other employers in the state as well. IIRC, only the land/building deal was specific and a version of that is likely to be available to whomever decides to build on the site.

Empire State Development was to award Amazon a cash grant of $325 million from taxpayers. This is corporate welfare and a kind of corruption. Congress should ban all government subsidies that are one-off and negotiated in secret with individual companies. There's an equal protection under the law issue.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#40

Post by spamizbad »

Permit wrote: post #31
spamizbad wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad they dropped it. There are some grounded concerns: * Amazon is one of the most successful enterprises in human history and should not require support from taxpayers beyond their voluntary patronage of Amazon itself. * Most of these "deals" were put together secretly without input from the public. Millions (or in NY's case, billion+) of dollars were packaged and presented without community input or oversight…

> * Most of these "deals" were put together secretly without input from the public. Millions (or in NY's case, billion+) of dollars were packaged and presented without community input or oversight > * State and local governments probably shouldn't be diverting billions of their citizen's tax revenue to lure corporations who will only impact a tiny subset of their citizenry. I haven't been following this closely. What…

Rezoning and eminent domain, resulting in massive windfall for Plaxall https://www.crainsnewyork.com/real-estate/plastics-company-a...

(Yes, some of that land is being purchased in a private sale, but its value is now significantly greater because of the city's rezoning and ability to stich-together workable parcels through eminent domain)Long island City residents aren't terribly happy about that.

Then there's the whole Excelsior tax credit scheme which Amazon really stretches. It's normally just 6.85% of wages per net new job. Amazon's is significantly greater. https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-jobs-program

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