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Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

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Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#31

Post by beefield »

lawn wrote: post #20
citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

As a Swede this is exactly why I'm against the EU. Free trade is great, I get that, but I really don't like the centralization and getting less and less influence. I don't want Germany and France to shove idiotic internet laws down my throat. In some way it's also why I'm rooting for U.K. to leave the EU and for it to work out.

Just wondering, what exactly makes you think the laws shoved to your throat by Sweden would on average be any less idiotic? And why would just Sweden be the right size of entity that optimizes the idiocy of the laws, why independent Skåne would not be shoving less idiotic laws to your throat?

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#32

Post by vanderZwan »

DelightOne wrote: post #11
Someone wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_... : ”At this point, the text will be reviewed by the European Parliament Committee on Legal Affairs, and then presented to the full European Parliament for a vote. Should the vote succeed, then each of the EU's member states have up to 24 months to introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive.” So, this is a statement “we believe the…

> introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive. Why so complicated? It seems a bad idea to have 28 different laws which generally say the same thing but with possibly small differences so it gets a minefield. No wonder EU is a difficult market. Who possibly thought that's a good idea?

Think of it like an interface and an implementation in programming.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#34

Post by Someone »

riffraff wrote: post #18
DelightOne wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive. Why so complicated? It seems a bad idea to have 28 different laws which generally say the same thing but with possibly small differences so it gets a minefield. No wonder EU is a difficult market. Who possibly thought that's a good idea?

each country has a different legal system, trying to make a single legislation is _really_ hard and generally not worth it. Some countries never ratify the directives either. That's why GDPR (which is a regulation, not a directive) was such a big deal, but it came years after there was a data protection directive, allowing the systems to harmonize.

Also, directives typically describe goals, not the way to reach them. That gives individual countries some freedom.

For example, Directive 2015/720 requires member states to reduce single-use plastic bag use by 50% by 2017 and 80% by 2019, but doesn’t tell anything about how to do that.

Denmark taxes companies giving away bags, Ireland taxes every bag sold, the Netherlands made it illegal to give out free bags (with exceptions), Serbia (not EU, but aspiring to become an EU country) taxes manufacturers and importers of plastic bags, etc (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_lightweight_pla...)

And yes, there likely are opportunities to game this. If you buy a can of beer or a single-use bottle of soda in Germany, for example, you pay a deposit that you get back when you return the empty vessel. Often, you can buy the same vessel in Belgium, where the deposit is lower, or the Netherlands, where deposits only exist for bottles of half a liter or more.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#35

Post by beefield »

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

> Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities.

I am perfectly willing to accept that you think this is sad. Just like I am willing to accept that some people like blue color over red. But have you ever thought why you think that is sad? In some real, rational terms?

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#36

Post by NeedMoreTea »

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

> countries like the U.K., who have a strong national identity

I laughed, good one. You're aware of Scotland almost voting for independence, and Northern Ireland being demographically only a matter of time until independence (reunification with Ireland)? Or that both of those places voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU? Gibraltar voted 99% remain.

So which bit of the UK wants to be an independent nation? There's about a dozen permutations you can arrive at. If Scotland and / or Northern Ireland goes, expect independence for Yorkshire and Cornwall, maybe Northumbria campaigns.

I think just about the only thing that unites the UK at present is the dire quality of this generation of Westminster politicians. Perhaps also embarrassment of being British and associated with them.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#37

Post by luckydata »

grokys wrote: post #30
TadaScientist wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh really? National identities didn't arise naturally? Ask the Greeks and the Italians

Italy was unified in 1871, in part by force. And many parts of Italy still resent that and consider themselves Sicilian, Napolitan etc rather than "Italian". I can't speak for Greece, but Italy is a really BAD example of a "naturally arisen" national identity. In fact the (now second party) Northern League's sole purpose until Matteo Salvini was to split Northen Italy from the south.

Can confirm some of this is true, but it would be overstating the division. It's a LONG conversation that I would be happy to have with a couple beers, but as a mixed Piemontese-Sicilian person living in the US I have a little more perspective on that than the average person :)

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#38

Post by Strom »

yeahforsureman wrote: post #17

What the hell, where's Sweden and Denmark? Or the much-hyped E-stonia? (Not that it would've made a difference.)

The lack of Estonia seemed curious to me as well, given Estonia's voting history regarding Article 13. Then I looked up the voting history for all these countries. [1] The votes against Article 13 have been as follows:

  Poland      72% (36 vs 14)
  Netherlands 71% (17 vs 7)
  Finland     50% (6 vs 6)
  Italy       38% (25 vs 41)
  Luxembourg  33% (2 vs 4)
    
  Sweden      100% (18 vs 0)
  Estonia     83% (5 vs 1)
  Denmark     17% (2 vs 10)
Looking at this frankly raises more questions than it answers. Has there been a big change of heart in say Italy suddenly? They've been voting in favor of article 13 thus far.

--

[1] https://saveyourinternet.eu/act/

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#39

Post by Zenst »

folbec wrote: post #21
r3bl wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'd need either 13 countries or any number of countries that represents 35% of the EU population to oppose this law. Last time, it was 8 countries representing 27% that opposed it. A handy voting calculator[0] gives us about 23.88% of the population using the countries listed here. This is (was?) a less-likely scenario to stop it. One final attempt will be when all the MEPs get a chance to vote on it. [0] https://ww…

If the vote is before brexit it's 23.88% after brexit it's 27.42%.

You raise a very poignant point, should votes that are borderline, that the UK MEP's have voted recently be reviewed?

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#40

Post by sotojuan »

TadaScientist wrote: post #27
DubiousPusher wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. National identities didn't arise naturally. Many of them were very thoughtfully and intentionally invented. For most of human history, the idea that people over a geography the size of Engalnd would see themselves as one people would've been ridiculous. It's really only in the last 200-400 years that people have accepted the nation…

Oh really? National identities didn't arise naturally? Ask the Greeks and the Italians

Italy is probably the worst European example of this. For most of history the country was split into nation states that warred with each other. Even after unification, there's a strong cultural divide between the north and the south.
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