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Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

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Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#31

Post by kristianc »

Animats wrote: post #20

It's not that hard to do without Google, except for search. My phone has all Google user-facing services removed. Mail is on an Sonic IMAP server and accessed with K-9 mail. Browsing is is with Fennec. Apps come from F-Droid. Navigation is based on Open Street Map. GPS assistance comes from Mozilla's location provider. No Facebook on mobile. Messaging is SMS and email. On desktop, documents are in Libre Office. Priva…

This article suggests that completely cutting Google out of your life is actually really really hard and breaks a lot of things unexpectedly:

https://gizmodo.com/i-cut-google-out-of-my-life-it-screwed-u...

If you think its easy, you've probably only cut out the most obvious vectors.

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#32

Post by prophesi »

mehrdadn wrote: post #23
prophesi wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's the whole _scanning emails_. The information is already leaked at that point.

Leaked to whom though? That's what I don't get. No human is involved in the process and your information is in the hands of the same company as before.

That's a lot of trust in a black box coded by humans. What's going on under the hood with their Smart Compose? Smart Reply? Smart Labels? It all requires processing very very personal information, and you simply can't vet whether it's all handled securely.

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#33

Post by blakesterz »

pas wrote: post #2

> " They are willing to give up privacy for free email. " How exactly does Google/GMail violate the users' privacy with email? They process the messages, show hyper-targeted ads. End of story. But is there a Cambridge Analytica for GMail? Can some "app" exfiltrate the emails? Or the contacts of users?

I am so far willing to give up some small amount of privacy for free email, though I'd also pay Google for it because it is simply the best email hosting I could find. I don't want to host my own email, hosting email sucks. I've tried other email hosters and they just weren't as good. They also have security in place that takes care of all the big things in my threat model.

So when it comes to email... yeah, it's not as private as it could be, but it's about the best I can find for everything else. It ain't perfect, but it's the best option for me right now. Maybe it won't be in a year or two?

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#34

Post by mehrdadn »

prophesi wrote: post #32
mehrdadn wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaked to whom though? That's what I don't get. No human is involved in the process and your information is in the hands of the same company as before.

That's a lot of trust in a black box coded by humans. What's going on under the hood with their Smart Compose? Smart Reply? Smart Labels? It all requires processing very very personal information, and you simply can't vet whether it's all handled securely.

Sure, you're trusting their code is bug free. That's just (lack of) faith on your end. The fact that you decide not to trust their competence certainly does not logically imply that they are invading your privacy. It just means you need to trust their competence or take your business to some company you deem more competent. (Though exactly which company would be more competent in infosec is quite the question, but I digress.)

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#35

Post by prophesi »

mehrdadn wrote: post #34
prophesi wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot of trust in a black box coded by humans. What's going on under the hood with their Smart Compose? Smart Reply? Smart Labels? It all requires processing very very personal information, and you simply can't vet whether it's all handled securely.

Sure, you're trusting their code is bug free. That's just (lack of) faith on your end. The fact that you decide not to trust their competence certainly does not logically imply that they are invading your privacy. It just means you need to trust their competence or take your business to some company you deem more competent. (Though exactly which company would be more competent in infosec is quite the question, but I…

No, it's a lot more than just trusting that their code is bug-free. It's trusting that they're actually only doing what they claim to be doing with your data.

The only solution is to have the code open sourced with reproducible builds and a checksum to verify it against. Pretty much every GApp has a free, libre, open-source alternative that respects your privacy in this way.

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#36

Post by bassman9000 »

pas wrote: post #2

> " They are willing to give up privacy for free email. " How exactly does Google/GMail violate the users' privacy with email? They process the messages, show hyper-targeted ads. End of story. But is there a Cambridge Analytica for GMail? Can some "app" exfiltrate the emails? Or the contacts of users?

They process the messages

That's SVspeak for

they read your emails

Yes, yes. I know it's a machine.

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#37

Post by mehrdadn »

prophesi wrote: post #35
mehrdadn wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, you're trusting their code is bug free. That's just (lack of) faith on your end. The fact that you decide not to trust their competence certainly does not logically imply that they are invading your privacy. It just means you need to trust their competence or take your business to some company you deem more competent. (Though exactly which company would be more competent in infosec is quite the question, but I…

No, it's a lot more than just trusting that their code is bug-free. It's trusting that they're actually only doing what they claim to be doing with your data. The only solution is to have the code open sourced with reproducible builds and a checksum to verify it against. Pretty much every GApp has a free, libre, open-source alternative that respects your privacy in this way.

Even that: if you lack trust on your part, that does not imply what someone else is doing is an invasion of your privacy. If you claim someone is invading your privacy, that is an accusation... a serious one at that. To support it you need to actually describe how that is happening, not merely how you have problems trusting people who deal with your information. I don't see how this is not obvious.

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#38

Post by O1111OOO »

> But after more than a decade of abuse, we should look deeper at our analysis and perhaps conclude that these issues aren’t abuse at all, but rather a bargain, a negotiation, and one that people are quite willing to live with.

No. We shouldn't conclude anything. The author gives the mass market way too much credit in knowing the extent of tracking, data-harvesting, data-sharing, MITM access (ie, ISPs, cell companies), the lack of transparency, the lack of accountability, the backdoor collusion with government and an entrenched news media that has a vested interest in protecting their ad revenue.

In the grand sleazy scale of things, they are nearly ignorant compared to knowledgeable: basing their consumerism on PR statements, selfies and memes. It remains for most of them... A Brave New World.

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#39

Post by prophesi »

mehrdadn wrote: post #37
prophesi wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's a lot more than just trusting that their code is bug-free. It's trusting that they're actually only doing what they claim to be doing with your data. The only solution is to have the code open sourced with reproducible builds and a checksum to verify it against. Pretty much every GApp has a free, libre, open-source alternative that respects your privacy in this way.

Even that: if you lack trust on your part, that does not imply what someone else is doing is an invasion of your privacy. If you claim someone is invading your privacy, that is an accusation... a serious one at that. To support it you need to actually describe how that is happening, not merely how you have problems trusting people who deal with your information. I don't see how this is not obvious.

It's why GDPR came into being, and California's recent data privacy law. We have no reason to have faith in these companies to keep our data safe, or to use it properly. After 10+ years of having our credit card numbers, social security numbers, emails, passwords, and so on leaked again and again, I fail to see how one wouldn't have trust issues at this point.

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#40

Post by dataflow »

prophesi wrote: post #39
mehrdadn wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even that: if you lack trust on your part, that does not imply what someone else is doing is an invasion of your privacy. If you claim someone is invading your privacy, that is an accusation... a serious one at that. To support it you need to actually describe how that is happening, not merely how you have problems trusting people who deal with your information. I don't see how this is not obvious.

It's why GDPR came into being, and California's recent data privacy law. We have no reason to have faith in these companies to keep our data safe, or to use it properly. After 10+ years of having our credit card numbers, social security numbers, emails, passwords, and so on leaked again and again, I fail to see how one wouldn't have trust issues at this point.

I never said you can't have trust issues or that GDPR isn't necessary, I'm saying neither of those implies they are invading your privacy when they show you ads based on your emails. This should be pretty clear?
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