What we've learned about hiring engineering managers • Hacker News Board

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#31

Post by trhway » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 9:16 PM UTC

jiveturkey wrote: post #26

trhway wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> supporting a technical decision without acting as a decision-maker. manager is ultimately responsible for his team decisions (of course bad managers do try to scapegoat that responsibility down onto the team when the stuff hits the fan) and being responsible for the decisions can't be separated from making those decisions.

you are stuck on the model of manager-as-boss. in order to create a true engineering ladder that is separate but equal to the management ladder, tech teams need to make the decisions. it is the tech lead (whatever rank he may be, let's say principal for sake of argument) that makes technical decisions. the manager cannot override that. unless of course, the manager is actually the boss. which invalidates the tech lad…

>you are stuck on the model of manager-as-boss. in order to create a true engineering ladder that is separate but equal to the management ladder

it will be equal only when the people on the technical ladder start to take hiring and firing decisions. Until that - the "parallel" ladder is just a pipe dream and the manager is the boss.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#32

Post by indymike » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 9:50 PM UTC

yingw787 wrote: post #7

I've been fortunate to have two great direct managers at the prior companies I've worked at, and one common thread they have is they've both been developers. I think working in the field before you command people who do so helps build empathy and understanding of the problem at hand, as well as how it all ties into the bigger picture. I've heard in the military officers that served in the enlisted ranks before commis…

Can confirm that Mustangs were highly preferred by those that reported to them over academy grads in the Navy.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#33

Post by cbanek » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 9:52 PM UTC

I think it's good that they are doing some more managerial skills fit, although I think even a good manager for one team at a company might be a bad manager for a different team at the same company.

One of the companies I worked at hired a manager for a different team, and then somehow my team got stuck with the new manager. I don't feel like they were a great fit for our team, our people, and our way of doing things, despite how the other team thought the person would be great. People on the team started jumping ship and transferring to other teams, and I think it basically destroyed the couple of years of work we had put into building that new team. If you're hiring a manager for an existing team, I think it's important to have the direct reports really involved in the hiring process. It not only gives a sense of agency and involvement that helps bring a new person on above you, but also checks the culture fit of the people being managed (on both sides).

If managing is a people skills game, as this article seems to conclude, then it inevitably has to be about the people being managed. For example, is it a team of younger devs who need more mentoring and building up of skills? Or is it a more senior team who needs someone to push for them in the org and stay out of their way technically? These are two completely different managers in my book, and not because they are of two different levels of skill necessarily. While one person could probably do either, I think more realistically a manager is probably more on one side or the other.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#34

Post by aphexairlines » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 10:02 PM UTC

It would be interesting to see how many engineers vs managers there are for each compensation level at CircleCI.

Is is similar to larger companies where from the Senior Manager level onwards there are many times more managers than engineers, with the ratio becoming more pronounced at each level?

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#35

Post by jiveturkey » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 10:09 PM UTC

trhway wrote: post #31

jiveturkey wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are stuck on the model of manager-as-boss. in order to create a true engineering ladder that is separate but equal to the management ladder, tech teams need to make the decisions. it is the tech lead (whatever rank he may be, let's say principal for sake of argument) that makes technical decisions. the manager cannot override that. unless of course, the manager is actually the boss. which invalidates the tech lad…

>you are stuck on the model of manager-as-boss. in order to create a true engineering ladder that is separate but equal to the management ladder it will be equal only when the people on the technical ladder start to take hiring and firing decisions. Until that - the "parallel" ladder is just a pipe dream and the manager is the boss.

hiring decisions are made by the team, not the "hiring manager". putting the responsibility of "tie breaking" votes onto the HM is a reasonable thing.

generally, employees fire themselves ...

But I mean, you're not wrong. In the environment you're thinking of, the "tech ladder" is a farce. Which is why the parent, as he said, left that company.

CircleCI has made the claim that they have a true tech ladder, and there's no reason to disbelieve them.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#36

Post by jhayward » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

brink wrote: post #3

> We look for candidates’ ability to mentor and add value to technical discussions while understanding their own limitations, supporting a technical decision without acting as a decision-maker. It's nice that they are keeping this in mind. I was a technical lead for a new product in the company at my last job and had a new engineering manager hired over me. I ultimately quit because he wouldn't let me do my job, insi…

My personal model for how to handle the relationship of tech manager vs lead developer (actually all developers) is that the manager should definitely supervise and understand the decisions made. If she has concerns about them, be straightforward with the team, saying "I like x,y,z about your plan but I am concerned about whether we are getting in trouble on A or B". Let the team work out the problem and respond.

If the manager ever feels they simply must over-rule a team lead, it is probably better to replace the lead than to impose a dictat as it indicates a problem working with that person.

When you start to hear the team discussing options and they raise all the concerns that you would have yourself without you saying anything you know they've heard you and are modeling your thinking. That puts the team miles ahead.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#37

Post by chrisbro » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 10:20 PM UTC

cbanek wrote: post #33

I think it's good that they are doing some more managerial skills fit, although I think even a good manager for one team at a company might be a bad manager for a different team at the same company. One of the companies I worked at hired a manager for a different team, and then somehow my team got stuck with the new manager. I don't feel like they were a great fit for our team, our people, and our way of doing things…

100% have the team involved. I recently hired for a manager to take over one of my dev teams, had a couple of candidates I was on the fence about, but after hearing the development team's feedback, removed them from the running. A person's manager is one of the most influential people in their lives, like it or not, and it's very important to give people a say in that decision whenever possible.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#38

Post by santoshalper » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 10:34 PM UTC

Having separate "people leaders" and "technical leaders" is a cop out and poor org design. All you are doing is creating opportunities for conflict. Finding great technical people with an aptitude for leadership is hard, and the market for that kind of talent is fierce, but it is worth it. Settling for less is settling for having a mediocre engineering team.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#39

Post by santoshalper » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 10:36 PM UTC

jacobr1 wrote: post #27

tomnipotent wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Otherwise, they just get out of the way and let the team do its thing. Are you saying the next best thing to an involved manager is one that's not involved at all?

benign neglect is better than malign involvement - micromanaging, bad judgement, disruption and chaos etc ...

I don't know if you just made that phrase up, but it's great.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#40

Post by ep103 » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 10:41 PM UTC

lmilcin wrote: post #16

gwbas1c wrote: post #9

I firmly believe great software engineering managers are people who are adequate developers, but have excellent people skills. Why? They need to understand enough software at a high level to be able to manage, instead of turning lower-level details into management problems. But, they also need to find software development frustrating enough that they are happy to not have to do it every day.

I have worked for Intel for a bit. I haven't stayed there for long but I have learned a lot about how great engineering management works. Best managers I met had almost nil technical knowledge or if they did they were not advertising it very much. They were gardeners. They made sure you were occupied, you provided value, you did what you liked and all projects that needed staff were allocated staff. They will meet wi…

As a dev that has been promoted to manage (not just lead, manage) a reasonably sized team, but is still expected to code regularly, what you're describing sounds like paradise. From both the management, and dev perspective.