Paradise Lost is one of the most important poems • Hacker News Board

Re: Paradise Lost is one of the most important poems

#31

Post by magic-chicken » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 1:33 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #21

BossingAround wrote: post #13

Just like Joyce's Ulysses, Dostoevsky's work, etc. those all are books that some people consider hugely important, yet because of their difficulty, they won't touch lives of many. Even students of literature often don't understand these works. And so, I am sceptical when they get pronounced as extremely important. 'Important to whom?' seems to be the crucial question...

Why is this the top comment? What value does it add? This is almost a textbook case of “the middlebrow dismissal”. Paradise Lost is one of the single most influential and brilliant pieces of literature in the history of the English language.

He asked : why is it important ? You answered : because it is important. His comment has value because he's questionning an ill defined 'authority'. You accused him of a commiting a logical fallacy while committing one yourself. I learned more by reading the answers to his question than by reading your comment.

Re: Paradise Lost is one of the most important poems

#32

Post by goto11 » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 1:54 PM UTC

azangru wrote: post #25

goto11 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In literature studies, "important" usually means how many other works have been influenced by a work.

I wonder why they don't use the word "influential" then, if that's what they mean. To me, the word important has a distinct prescriptive ring to it. As in "this book is important, therefore you should go read it". The word imfluential is more descriptive and does not have such connotations.

That is what the word means.

Important: 1.2 (of an artist or artistic work) significantly original and influential. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/important

Re: Paradise Lost is one of the most important poems

#33

Post by billfruit » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 2:08 PM UTC

For a common reader, it is quite difficult to appreciate unless it is presented in a fully annotated form, which explains all the allusions and references Milton makes.

I also think than Dryden's Aeneiad is as important as Paradise Lost.

Re: Paradise Lost is one of the most important poems

#34

Post by keiferski » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

magic-chicken wrote: post #31

keiferski wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this the top comment? What value does it add? This is almost a textbook case of “the middlebrow dismissal”. Paradise Lost is one of the single most influential and brilliant pieces of literature in the history of the English language.

He asked : why is it important ? You answered : because it is important. His comment has value because he's questionning an ill defined 'authority'. You accused him of a commiting a logical fallacy while committing one yourself. I learned more by reading the answers to his question than by reading your comment.

To quote Wikipedia, "Paradise Lost has had a profound impact on writers, artists and illustrators, and, in the twentieth century, filmmakers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost_in_popular_cultu...

I'm sorry, but the idea that a single paragraph HN comment is some kind of deep philosophical point about the nature of authority is absurd. It was a glib dismissive comment, skeptical not for any well-thought out reason, but simply because they personally didn't understand it. I don't know how precisely I'd define anti-intellectualism, but that comes pretty close.

Re: Paradise Lost is one of the most important poems

#35

Post by pseudolus » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 2:29 PM UTC

stiangrindvoll wrote: post #11

Any recommended print for this?

The Norton Critical Edition is pretty good, well annotated, and, if I'm correct, the "go to" edition used in a number of universities [0].

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Paradise-Norton-Critical-Editions-thi...

Re: Paradise Lost is one of the most important poems

#36

Post by pseudolus » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

William Blake is only mentioned in passing in the article but his illustrations of Paradise Lost are themselves standalone works of art [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Blake%27s_illustration...

Re: Paradise Lost is one of the most important poems

#37

Post by magic-chicken » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 2:42 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #34

magic-chicken wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He asked : why is it important ? You answered : because it is important. His comment has value because he's questionning an ill defined 'authority'. You accused him of a commiting a logical fallacy while committing one yourself. I learned more by reading the answers to his question than by reading your comment.

To quote Wikipedia, "Paradise Lost has had a profound impact on writers, artists and illustrators, and, in the twentieth century, filmmakers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost_in_popular_cultu... I'm sorry, but the idea that a single paragraph HN comment is some kind of deep philosophical point about the nature of authority is absurd. It was a glib dismissive comment, skeptical not for any well-thought out…

This quote is gold, and I think this is the best answer you could have come with in the first place.

Re: Paradise Lost is one of the most important poems

#38

Post by hyper_reality » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

pbwolf wrote: post #5

I still recall my English Lit teacher in 11th grade bringing this to us. To hear her explain how Milton made the Devil the rebel and hero versus god was almost shocking for a 16 year old.

I'm disappointed that the article didn't explore another perspective on Milton's Satan, which is that the "Devil's party" is deliberately cast as more appealing than the virtuous one. Milton's point is that sin is exciting and enticing, while being principled takes hard work and dedication - as in the parable of the wide and narrow paths to salvation. Satan's rhetoric about democracy is insincere since what he really wants is tyranny and chaos, and the poem emphasises how humans need the aptitude to be able to recognise and reject such false language.

Of course Romantic poets brought a different, more familiar set of values to their reading of Paradise Lost, but I think it is more enlightening to understand the poem within the world in which it was written, and appreciate the depth of Milton's commitment to Puritan and Republican ideals even if aspects of them seem alien to the modern reader.

Re: Paradise Lost is one of the most important poems

#39

Post by Lavery » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 3:52 PM UTC

BossingAround wrote: post #13

Just like Joyce's Ulysses, Dostoevsky's work, etc. those all are books that some people consider hugely important, yet because of their difficulty, they won't touch lives of many. Even students of literature often don't understand these works. And so, I am sceptical when they get pronounced as extremely important. 'Important to whom?' seems to be the crucial question...

You're missing the point in a way that brings to mind a great Brian Eno quote. "The first Velvet Underground album only sold 10,000 copies, but everyone who bought it formed a band".

Re: Paradise Lost is one of the most important poems

#40

Post by graeme » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 4:04 PM UTC

robin_reala wrote: post #23

BossingAround wrote: post #13

Just like Joyce's Ulysses, Dostoevsky's work, etc. those all are books that some people consider hugely important, yet because of their difficulty, they won't touch lives of many. Even students of literature often don't understand these works. And so, I am sceptical when they get pronounced as extremely important. 'Important to whom?' seems to be the crucial question...

Dostoevsky is hardly difficult in the way that Joyce is. I mean, yes, there’s lots of layers to uncover, but he’s downright comedic when the situation calls of it (e.g. Mitya’s carousing and subsequent arrest in Karamazov is a fine piece of comedy writing and extremely accessible, regardless of the complexity of his motives).

Indeed. I couldn't get more than a few pages into Joyce, but Dostoyevsky's works are a joy. Very relateable human drama. You can enjoy it even on superficial levels, and catch more later on a reread.