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A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale

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Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale

#31
post #23
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DNSSEC has the unique advantage of permitting offline signing. If you go this route, even somebody controlling your authoritative servers wouldn't be able to modify your records.

It doesn't matter if you use offline signing for your zone if someone owns up the account you log into to control your domain with your registrar , or owns up the registrar . So no, even with offline signing, DNSSEC did nothing here. But it's worth keeping in mind that most organizations can't use offline signing, because the duct-tape-and-baling-wire solutions DNSSEC applies to people dumping zones with NSEC records…

Depending on the registrar, updating glue records can be a separate process that requires additional authentication. Not long ago my registrar required me to contact them directly to update glue records.

Offline signing is a very useful feature precisely because it makes it easier to differentiate security domains. For example, I could use offline signing for foo.com (along with a registrar lock) but delegate the subdomain dyn.foo.com to a separate SOA that uses real-time signing (or none at all) for use by internal services.

The problem with the modern web PKI is that, as a practical matter, everybody is forced to put their private keys not only online, but unprotected (because HSM and PKCS#11 support isn't that great, yet).[1] Key rotation and certificate expiration doesn't really solve the problem; in fact, rotation exacerbates the problem by 1) forcing you to keep the CA keys online, and 2) incentivizing increasingly loose authorization policies.

Offline signing makes it easier to manage risk in a more robust manner. It's a tool, not a panacea; a tool conspicuously missing from TLS infrastructure. Some newer projects like Wireguard have effectively turned asymmetric key authentication systems into something that walks and quacks exactly like shared passwords. They do it because key management is a hard problem. But I'm not ready to throw in the towel, and the option (both officially and as a practical choice) of offline key signing in DNSSEC is under appreciated. From a security perspective, allowing people to enumerate my subdomains is a small price to pay for permitting me to keep my private keys offline. I don't expect everybody to make that calculation, but it bothers me that people fail to see the value at all.

[1] People faithfully recite the mantra "encrypt at rest" as if that means something. Data at rest is useless. If your data is worth anything then you're going to actually be, you know, using it, and if it's not protected in use then it's all just security theater. This is most clear with the private keys (e.g. stored "encrypted at rest" in KMS) used by cloud services for acquiring access tokens. It's 2019 and industry is still basically using shared passwords--tons of them, a complex web of passwords dutifully pushed around the network by layers of complex software. As if any of it matters to someone who has figured out how to penetrate your network; as if 5 minute or even 5 second password rotation matters to the guy who already figured out how to automate penetration onto your systems.

Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale

#32
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

after reading the headline I immediately thought of "14 DNS Nerds Don't Control the Internet" [0]. [0] https://sockpuppet.org/blog/2016/10/27/14-dns-nerds-dont-con...

What a strange article. I thought it was leading up to saying that control of DNSSEC is decentralized, or has a transparency process, or something. But instead of 14 nerds, it's the US government (for .com). I need to read up on DNSSEC.

>But instead of 14 nerds, it's the US government (for .com). //

So it's much worse than it being 14 random nerds then!

/not-sure-if-joking

Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale

#33
post #3

What ever happened to HPKP? It seems like that would somewhat mitigate these attacks since they rely on using their control over the domain to get a new DV cert. A pinned certificate would at least protect those who have accessed the sites before.

Being widely phased-out due to being too risky and error-prone. Attacks like this get a lot of media attention, but are pretty rare overall. It's much more common for someone to handle certificates and servers badly somehow, ending up in locking all of your visitors out of your own site, or you never bother with it, but the attacker who takes over your domain does, once again basically hijacking your domain name indefinitely.

I never set it up for any of my sites for the same reason, just too many ways for it to go wrong.

Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale

#34
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's some kind of alarmism over letsencrypt ... "letsencrypt will give tricky attackers a valid certificate for a domain!!!" (if they get control over the domain) (... certs have almost always been granted based on control of the domain, though historically it mostly MX records ... so attackers could do pretty much the same thing 15 years ago)

Yeah but you used to need a credit card. The barrier to entry is lower. HTTPS is a tire fire.

Your completely right, where on Earth would criminals and scammers be able to get a credit card? /s

I am having a hard time understanding how more websites using https could possibly be a worse thing.

Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale

#36
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but you used to need a credit card. The barrier to entry is lower. HTTPS is a tire fire.

Your completely right, where on Earth would criminals and scammers be able to get a credit card? /s I am having a hard time understanding how more websites using https could possibly be a worse thing.

Lots of people still have the mindset that http is the default and https signals a high level of trustworthiness.

What we're shifting towards (and maybe already are there) is https is default, and an http-only site is an amateur setup, on the same level as hosting your site via IP (no domain name at all) or with a url like http://myisp.net/~mycompany/default.htm.

Like it or not, browsers are treating sites like this now, and you don't see many "Secured by TrustworthyCo SSL" golden padlock badge images anymore.

Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale

#37
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but you used to need a credit card. The barrier to entry is lower. HTTPS is a tire fire.

Your completely right, where on Earth would criminals and scammers be able to get a credit card? /s I am having a hard time understanding how more websites using https could possibly be a worse thing.

Yeah, yeah.

So many on HN has this mindset. Criminals just whip up credit cards like it's nothing. They don't. It's noisy to use some grandma's credit card to buy a cert for buttsnstuff.ca when she donates to her local church five times a month. Almost all criminals are fucking dumb or even if they're smart they fuck up before they're good and land themselves in jail. Like at least 98% of them.

HTTPS is a tire fire. Root certs by hostiles. Near-trivial PDAs. Termination at network edge. OS installed certs. Even when it "works" 95% of the packets are on shitty, broken ciphers with no forward secrecy. And that last 5% is built on PKI which we know quantum is breaking pretty fucking soon. Almost nobody rotates access tokens. Almost nobody layers encryption. Almost nobody safeguards certs by locking down permissions. Almost nobody pins them. Almost nobody uses HSTS.

Everything is shabby and shitty and breakable. Let's Encrypt is the wrong solution. It helps irrelevant hobby websites and increases risk for medium sized companies that tried to do the right thing.

Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale

#38
post #7

Note that these attacks involve compromised accounts with authority servers , so despite being the most visible and impactful DNS attacks of the last few years, DNSSEC would have done little to defend against them; in fact, even in the DNSSEC fantasy-world where DANE replaces X.509 CAs, these attackers would still have accomplished their goals.

Obviously the signing of example.com by .com must be secure itself. Otherwise no crypto delegation is secure, including tls signing.

> where DANE replaces X.509 CAs

Much easier migration actually. Just patch all firefox/etc to accept example.com's DNSSEC key as root ca. Then example.com can create its own tls cert. A very simple and minor patch to tls codebase.

Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale

#39
post #17
post #7

Note that these attacks involve compromised accounts with authority servers , so despite being the most visible and impactful DNS attacks of the last few years, DNSSEC would have done little to defend against them; in fact, even in the DNSSEC fantasy-world where DANE replaces X.509 CAs, these attackers would still have accomplished their goals.

after reading the headline I immediately thought of "14 DNS Nerds Don't Control the Internet" [0]. [0] https://sockpuppet.org/blog/2016/10/27/14-dns-nerds-dont-con...

Much better than (CA0 || CA1 || ... ). All it takes is one CA out of 10s of independent CAs to misbehave to insecure whole tls.

In DNSSEC/DANE, world only has to watch one entity rather than 10s of entities.

Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale

#40
post #22

That's why I placed this Ask HN a while ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17704828 I pitched that idea at startup school, and got accepted. However, after a while I pivoted to something else, as I decided that the name registry and DNS market is just too crowded. I was afraid that we'd be spending 99% of the time and budget on convincing people they need secure domain/DNS management, instead of building the t…

Security could be an advantage for a variety of online services. When selecting an online service, I'm starting to use U2F 2FA support as a way to narrow the list of services to consider, so making a decision is easier. Few domain name registrars offer U2F from what I can tell.
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