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The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

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Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#31

Post by JohnBooty »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #4
crushcrashcrush wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s also incredibly expressive, which to a western audience may come across as “cheesy” but I personally love it. Give Rush Hour a shot and I guarantee you’ll enjoy it.

Rush Hour 1 through 3 have long been some of my favourite movies! If we're getting into Jackie Chan movies, though, one cannot leave out Drunken Master

A note of clarification:

Drunken Master is pretty good!

Drunken Master II (re-released in slightly edited form as "Legend of the Drunken Master" in the US) is the one that's typically regarded as a bona-fide classic masterpiece.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#32

Post by larrydag »

vinceguidry wrote: post #17

The author doesn't want to treat Chan's insistence on his account being an inspirational one and just wants to see it as sad. I'm reminded of a Quora answer by a guy who loved fighting, one phrase he used stuck out at me. "Great fighters have to kind of like getting hit." You can't push your body to its very limits without getting injured. Planning and preparing for it is not sad, it's smart. Chan's account should be…

I've often heard of BUDS Navy Seal training that its not IF you break a bone or get hurt its WHEN. I agree it takes a certain personality.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#33

Post by [deleted] »

stcredzero wrote: post #20
vinceguidry wrote: post #17

The author doesn't want to treat Chan's insistence on his account being an inspirational one and just wants to see it as sad. I'm reminded of a Quora answer by a guy who loved fighting, one phrase he used stuck out at me. "Great fighters have to kind of like getting hit." You can't push your body to its very limits without getting injured. Planning and preparing for it is not sad, it's smart. Chan's account should be…

I mean, sure, it would be way better if Hong Kong weren't the colonial hell-hole it was. In what sense is Hong Kong a colonial hell-hole? (Take this not as a challenge, but as a question from someone who is unfamiliar with the idea.) Is there an underclass trapped there? Do the people in it feel trapped?

[deleted]

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#34

Post by tomxor »

jasonjei wrote: post #27

Jackie Chan, though, is an apologist for the Mainland government, and even suggested that Taiwan, perhaps (as of now) the only Chinese-speaking democracy, has “too much freedom.”

> is an apologist for the Mainland government

Yes but doesn't any Chinese person have to be if they want to maintain any kind of ability to travel in China? _Especially_ if they are famous.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#35

Post by stcredzero »

vinceguidry wrote: post #25
stcredzero wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, sure, it would be way better if Hong Kong weren't the colonial hell-hole it was. In what sense is Hong Kong a colonial hell-hole? (Take this not as a challenge, but as a question from someone who is unfamiliar with the idea.) Is there an underclass trapped there? Do the people in it feel trapped?

It was described in the article. A lot of economic activity there is only a few steps removed from human trafficking. And I'm sure a lot of that goes on there as well, but it's hard to track for obvious reasons.

I just read the article, and I didn't see any mention of human trafficking. The Hong Kong opera school is described as indentured servitude.

And I'm sure a lot of that goes on there as well, but it's hard to track for obvious reasons.

I think that summarizes the constant emotional undertones in this article. This article strikes me as a deliberate re-spinning of a story meant to be triumphal, making it the sneakiest hit piece, ever, disguised as a think piece. I would think better of it, were it not for its reliance on such common knowledge preconceptions about "what the Chinese are like."

(Also the French and the British. But that is just what upper-crusty people are like. Human beings are highly hierarchical, and this expresses itself in even the most hardline Marxist states. Even some of the west coast philosopher kings and queens who hang out in places like Big Sur can look down their noses at people with almost no information to prompt it.)

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#36

Post by JohnBooty »

crushcrashcrush wrote: post #8
kindatrue wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I liked Rush Hour, but according to IMDB he's been quoted as saying those are some of his least favorite movies.

Ah that’s disappointing. I hope he knows the first movie was a highlight of my movie-going childhood!

In terms of martial arts action those movies are pale shadows of his earlier Hong Kong work.

Partially because Chan is older in those movies and is a little less physically capable.

But IMO mostly because of Hollywood's unfortunate style of directing fights and martial arts battles.

Traditional Hong Kong martial arts movies use a lot of wide and long, unbroken shots. You can really see the performers performing these physical acts of skill and beauty -- you see their entire bodies, it's almost like watching performers on a stage. Which is of course Chan's background.

In contrast, Western directors typically use a lot of fast, tight, jerky, almost seizure-inducing cuts. A closeup of a fist hitting a face. A closeup of an elbow hitting a knee. A closeup of a face showing somebody's reaction to the pain. Etc. etc etc. There's much less continuity. 98% of the scenes are probably shot by stunt/body doubles. It doesn't take a lot of talent for an actor to pull off a scene like that, at least not compared to the traditional HK style where the actors have had a lifetime of martial arts training.

Of course, those are vast generalizations. You can name plenty of counterexamples from both schools!

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#37

Post by gf263 »

the_af wrote: post #16
netsharc wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose you'd have to ask him if he'd rather have lived a normal life (without the beatings and the stardom) or if given the choice, he'd pick the life he's lived again. At least he got to enjoy life being rich and famous, kids in Africa become slaves or child soldiers and end up dead.

We know the answer: Jackie thinks it was worth it. I'm unconvinced... as much as I like him and I'm glad he can enjoy his success. Yes, the children in Africa who become slaves or child soldiers and end up dead have it worse. I'm not sure what lesson we can draw from that :)

Very confused as to what you're trying to say

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#38

Post by the_af »

chaostheory wrote: post #29
the_af wrote: post #7

Interesting how difficult and rough Jackie Chan's childhood was. He certainly succeeded, but at what cost? This article reviews how Chan downplays the hardships he was forced to endure (e.g. being essentially sold by his parents as an indentured servant when he was seven years old, complete with beatings and dismal living conditions) and instead chooses to focus on the end result, his success as an adult.

> He certainly succeeded, but at what cost? The cost would be paid by Chan regardless of whether he became rich and famous. Specifically, he did not have a choice for being a slave in the Peking Opera house, so I'm not sure what point you and the author are trying to make. Paraphrasing Obama, Chan has embraced the burden of his past without becoming and staying a victim of it. Jackie Chan has taken responsibility for…

> The cost would be paid by Chan regardless of whether he became rich and famous

I'm not sure. Maybe he wouldn't have had to be sold as an indentured servant, get beaten, be deprived of an education, and sleep on a mattress soiled with piss. Or maybe he would have died of starvation, who knows? Or maybe he would have moved with his parents to Australia, where the article mentions they went. It's definitely worth thinking about.

Please don't conflate my opinion and that of the author. I can't answer what the author's point was.

> What does the author suggest Jackie Chan do instead of rising above his past? Obsess about it and wallow in despair, hopelessness, and depression?

Again, I can't answer for the author, but I can think of a few things Chan could do: help prevent a similar hard childhood for current kids. Speak out. Join an advocacy group. Maybe raise awareness of how dire the situation for many families was in colonial Hong Kong. Not saying all of these would be helpful (and maybe he already does some of this), but arguing there's only despair and hopelessness seems disingenuous to me.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#39

Post by dbingham »

vinceguidry wrote: post #23
maldusiecle wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, believe whatever you like, but it's pretty obvious that there are a lot of people who were in Chan's miserable situation--indentured servitude, endless hours, extreme poverty--and worked hard and weren't able to become, you know, Jackie Chan. It sort of stands to reason that it has to be that way, too, for the whole system to work. Chan is able to be the celebrity that he is, specifically because there's only on…

It's not demeaning and cruel to his fellow countrymen. They are what sustain him. Chan is somewhat popular in the West, but he's a veritable god in the East, like Manny Pacquiao is to Filipinos. You are the one demeaning the people there. Chan is the one inspiring them. It's silly to think that everybody in Hong Kong is going to compare themselves to Jackie Chan and lament that they won't be able to do what he does.…

I think what the previous commenter was reacting to in your post was not your defense of Chan an his memoir as inspirational, per se, but rather the specific phrase "If he can do it anyone can" as ignoring the fact that Chan -- and celebrities like him -- are extreme outliers, and extremely lucky for their success. Yes, Chan worked his ass off. But to have the success he did, he also had to have an insane amount of luck.

Using phrases like that excuses a system that keeps people oppressed by pointing to the outliers who manage to escape them. It's the old "lift yourself up by your bootstraps" argument.

We should recognize and change the system, not point people to the outliers and say "See, you can do it too!"

Chan's memoir can be inspirational, but we can also read into it - as the article does - and recognize the oppressive system and his luck in escaping it.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#40

Post by pbhjpbhj »

jdietrich wrote: post #28
doitLP wrote: post #2

Here’s a really cool video breaking down exactly how Jackie sets up his stunt-action-comedy. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ One thing that was particular interesting to me is how the setup always starts with him at an extreme disadvantage: no shoes, tied to a chair, hanging upside down, etc. I never noticed it before and it’s exactly what makes his action so enjoyable to watch. (The YouTube Channel is call…

The lack of respect Chan gets in the west is a travesty IMO. His fight choreography is rooted in the traditions Chinese opera while being constantly fresh, playful and imaginative. He shows absolute technical mastery, but there is always a sense of child-like joy underpinning that mastery. The fact that his films are often regarded as frivolous and lightweight says something profound about what is valued in our cultu…

Doesn't he do a lot of frivolous and light-hearted movies though -- I'm a huge fan.

Take a movie like "Who am I", it's like Johnny English meets Drunken Master.

"Kung Fu" films to me always have a notion of slapstick, even the beautiful ones like House of Flying Daggers; Chan's background in Opera I imagine helps to fulfill that element of slightly ludicrous spectacle (at least if Chinese opera has any similarity to its Western namesake).

I mean Shanghai Noon, great film within its genre, but goofy as anything; actors doing those sorts of movies just aren't treated as serious actors I guess.

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