Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#31

Post by jdlshore » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 11:39 PM UTC

thrwwyngnr wrote: post #20

will4274 wrote: post #16

I'm struck by the way you threw out two totally different types of complaints. Some people will always complain about too much micro-management and macro-management - that's fairly normal. Some people will always not like the guys on the other team, etc. Bugs will happen. Good managers can alleviate these problems and hiring experienced professionals (with the associated price tag) and making a concentrated effort wi…

> Employees will deal with not liking everybody. Money and calm managers will do the trick. Woah. That's the money quote for me. Now that you mention it, we haven't had calm managers in engineering in a while. The recent managers were always extremely angry or anxious, and always afraid not to make progress or making mistakes. I believe those fears trickled-down to the rest of the team, changing the whole group perso…

> rage outbursts, screaming during work hours and inappropriate e-mails... is the kind of thing HR (and the rest of the company) is having trouble dealing with.

This is a major red flag. It's either a symptom of the underlying issue, or the root cause itself.

1) It could be a symptom of the underlying issue, which is typically stress-related. "Shit rolls downhill" approach to management, unrealistic deadlines, fear of mass layoffs, etc.

2) Much more rarely, but it does happen, it could just be someone with an abusive personality. Those sorts of people are capital-T Toxic to your organization and will definitely result in your best people leaving. You want them gone, yesterday.

Start by assuming positive intent and looking at option 1 rather than option 2.

I provide consulting for organizations about engineering teams and culture and it seems like you might benefit from that. I'd be happy to have a free call with you if you'd like to talk further. My contact info is in my profile.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#32

Post by thrwwyngnr » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 11:40 PM UTC

insiderknowled wrote: post #13

thrwwyngnr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take one of the offenders and publicly shit can him. I don't think this will happen because engineers are scarce, and everyone is to blame, kind of. One of the worst offenders (who sent extremely aggressive e-mails to another team member, all trough personal accounts) left a few weeks ago of his own accord, so HR decided not to pursue him. Now that you mention it, that might have sent the wrong message.

It doesn't really matter that it's everyone's to blame. Just find the biggest offender who has pissed off everyone. Make an example out of him. Completely redicule him in front of others and even throw their belongings on the floor. Use most profane language, Steve Jobs style. Make sure you explain loudly why he is being treated like this and leaving the company. To make it clear, yell at him, "so you want to be a re…

OP here.

Yeah, that's not gonna fly here at all.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#33

Post by thrwwyngnr » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 11:42 PM UTC

alexashka wrote: post #29

You need technical leadership. Pay a lot for someone with a proven track record and let them handle it.

OP here.

Yep, I agree with you. That's good advice.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#34

Post by thrwwyngnr » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 11:46 PM UTC

jpfr wrote: post #27

thrwwyngnr wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do. We promote and fire based on both performance and cultural evaluations. Engineering had some firings in 2017, and we were supposedly left with the best ones. Problem is, things took a 180 curve somewhere, and it became rough in 2018. Maybe management is to blame, but we changed that too and it kept getting worse.

Consulting and “product engineering” are very different in the culture they require to be successful. From your description it sounds your culture is consulting heavy. Read the books by Rands to understand the difference. And his blog posts about engineer personalities and group dynamics. http://randsinrepose.com

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll order it!

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#35

Post by thrwwyngnr » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 11:53 PM UTC

jdlshore wrote: post #31

thrwwyngnr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employees will deal with not liking everybody. Money and calm managers will do the trick. Woah. That's the money quote for me. Now that you mention it, we haven't had calm managers in engineering in a while. The recent managers were always extremely angry or anxious, and always afraid not to make progress or making mistakes. I believe those fears trickled-down to the rest of the team, changing the whole group perso…

> rage outbursts, screaming during work hours and inappropriate e-mails... is the kind of thing HR (and the rest of the company) is having trouble dealing with. This is a major red flag. It's either a symptom of the underlying issue, or the root cause itself. 1) It could be a symptom of the underlying issue, which is typically stress-related. "Shit rolls downhill" approach to management, unrealistic deadlines, fear o…

> 1) It could be a symptom of the underlying issue, which is typically stress-related. "Shit rolls downhill" approach to management, unrealistic deadlines, fear of mass layoffs, etc.

Yep, there were some talks among engineers about the possibility of them being laid off and replaced by another team. But that's far from the case, as they've been repeatedly told that's not going to happen, have all gotten raises, stuff like that.

I could go with the unrealistic deadlines, which is something half of the team complains about, but the other half complains of the opposite. It's hard.

The whole team agrees that they're under-performing, though, which might be the reason for the fear of being laid off.

The "shit rolls downhill" thing is exactly the kind of thing all the previous managers did. I'd like to think that they stopped doing that, but that has left some scars on the team.

---

> 2) Much more rarely, but it does happen, it could just be someone with an abusive personality. Those sorts of people are capital-T Toxic to your organization and will definitely result in your best people leaving. You want them gone, yesterday.

The worst ones were already removed, but they seem to have caused lasting damage. We should see how it goes.

---

> I provide consulting for organizations about engineering teams and culture and it seems like you might benefit from that. I'd be happy to have a free call with you if you'd like to talk further. My contact info is in my profile.

Thanks, I'll definitely talk about it with our CEO and CTO.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#36

Post by DoreenMichele » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 11:56 PM UTC

You need to either integrate them into the company or you need a liaison who can serve as a diplomat to mediate their relationship to the rest of the company.

I'm considering quitting my very part-time job at a local non profit. I got involved because I got along well with a long standing member of the board who happened to run their websites. This board member happens to be female, as am I. We met multiple times for about three hours at a time, once a month. I did some pro bono work for the organization and ended up doing some paid work on their websites.

For personal reasons, she's handing off a lot of her responsibilities and no one else wants to talk to me for long periods like she did. I'm doing their websites and it's a tiny town where no one seems to know anything about the web. There are all kinds of misunderstandings and I'm the new kid in town, so I end up getting treated like it's my fault and I'm a dimwit and it's incredibly frustrating. (I don't think they are intentionally mistreating me, but that's how the situation feels to me and I'm not really finding solutions.)

It's extremely part-time, only 4 hours a month, and I'm not charging that much and I'm increasingly just spitting nails and going "You people don't pay me enough for this!"

The female board member was someone willing to take the time to explain things to me about the organization that I didn't know and to listen to me and give me a chance to explain what I wanted to do and why. Then she had strong long standing relationships to others and she could bridge the gap between me and them, so to speak. Without her, I'm beating my head against a wall and wondering why I bother. I could do other things for the small sum of money involved.

The engineers have specialized knowledge. No one else in the company "speaks their language." When you give them tasks imposed from outside, they think you are stupid and crazy and when they can't do what's ask of them because it just doesn't work that way, you think they are stupid and crazy.

You need a "translator" or liaison who can find a way to bridge the gap between the rest of the company and engineering. Someone who can go to them and say "The company needs X" and get told "That can't be done" and hash it out with them to find something that satisfies both departments. Someone with the power to say "Well, okay, what we are trying to do is thus and such" and listen when the engineers run down what your options realistically are, a person who can broker that deal in a way that genuinely respects the requirements of both departments.

That's the actual solution. But it's not easy to implement.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#37

Post by jpfr » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 12:02 AM UTC

thrwwyngnr wrote: post #30

jpfr wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What management thinks is irrelevant to morale. What the engineers believe management thinks is relevant. Your last sentence seems to prove a point here.

> What the engineers believe management thinks is relevant. Your last sentence seems to prove a point here. Yep, you have a point. And you're absolutely right: I shouldn't have even considered that suggestion, even though I'm not their manager, or even though I'm anonymous.

No need to censor your private thoughts. But beware that many engineers have seen broken promises by management at some time in their career.

So they are difficult to convince that this time it’s different.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#38

Post by lojack » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 12:05 AM UTC

thrwwyngnr wrote: post #11

Gibbon1 wrote: post #6

> had complaints of micromanaging mixed with complaints of lack of management. These aren't mutually exclusive. > how they actively engage in bickering and in-fighting between their own teams Take one of the offenders and publicly shit can him.

> Take one of the offenders and publicly shit can him. I don't think this will happen because engineers are scarce, and everyone is to blame, kind of. One of the worst offenders (who sent extremely aggressive e-mails to another team member, all trough personal accounts) left a few weeks ago of his own accord, so HR decided not to pursue him. Now that you mention it, that might have sent the wrong message.

While I don’t think you should fire someone just to set an example, the scarcity of developers is precisely why you should fire those who are negatively impacting the teams and are unwilling to change.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#39

Post by jdlshore » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 12:08 AM UTC

thrwwyngnr wrote: post #35

jdlshore wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rage outbursts, screaming during work hours and inappropriate e-mails... is the kind of thing HR (and the rest of the company) is having trouble dealing with. This is a major red flag. It's either a symptom of the underlying issue, or the root cause itself. 1) It could be a symptom of the underlying issue, which is typically stress-related. "Shit rolls downhill" approach to management, unrealistic deadlines, fear o…

> 1) It could be a symptom of the underlying issue, which is typically stress-related. "Shit rolls downhill" approach to management, unrealistic deadlines, fear of mass layoffs, etc. Yep, there were some talks among engineers about the possibility of them being laid off and replaced by another team. But that's far from the case, as they've been repeatedly told that's not going to happen, have all gotten raises, stuff…

In a dysfunctional situation (which, sad to say, it sounds like you could have), the first thing to go is trust. And when that happens, management statements are no longer believed. Ironically, the more you say about not planning layoffs, the more that can be taken as proof that layoffs could happen.

Similar with the scars from previous management and toxic employees. That history isn't quickly forgotten, even if the perpetrators are gone. That sort of abuse can be self-propagating: it becomes a learned behavior that turns victims into new abusers.

The good news is that you can recover, but it takes time and effort.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#40

Post by codyb » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 12:10 AM UTC

jadbox wrote: post #3

One approach to try is to physically integrate engineering with the rest of the company. If there's engineers that work on sales tools, have them work next to the sales group. Secondly get engineers more involved in other parts of the company. If marketing is having a team offsite, send an engineer that works on that tech with the team. Get engineers involved in business-related meetings where they can learn both the…

I like all the ideas here but putting me next to sales is a surefire way to leave me disgruntled. I can barely tolerate these open office layouts in general, much less with people making phone calls all day next to me.

As an engineer, things that would help me:

Flexible work from home policy. If you get your work done, you go home, and no one looks at you weird for leaving at 5:30 after staying late the evening prior. Noise cancelling headphones.

Like the parent here said, more integration with the company. I want to celebrate successes, have input on projects, and know my coworkers. I don't want to be a task hamster running on a wheel of endless tickets.

Strong engineering culture. Design reviews. Code reviews. CI/CD in place. Intelligent people around me who are excited about engineering.

Everything not always being a rush or on fire. On call duties limited. Deadlines not always impending and looming.

Healthy work life balance.

Benefits for things like education and gyms.

Am I spoiled? Sure. But that's the world we live in.