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Clojure 1.10 release

clojure.org

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Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#31

Post by trevor-e »

JBiserkov wrote: post #21
krn wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would put it simply: Clojure was designed by a thinker , who creates when he is away from the keyboard, not in front of it. When one releases and breaks the code in his head first, very few breaking changes are left for the public releases.

Rich Hickey is a great thinker. But he's also an application developer (Datomic). So breaking changes don't just break "other people's code" in the abstract. The pain is real and immediate. By wearing multiple hats he's finding the right balance in a way that language designers who don't code day-to-day simply can't.

The deification of Rich Hickey in this thread is amusing. No doubt he's a great developer and language designer, but dogfooding your own language is not exactly novel.

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#32

Post by kbd »

preordained wrote: post #25
kbd wrote: post #24

Are there any plans for a native version of Clojure? I'd rather avoid the JVM if possible, but I suppose the whole ecosystem is dependent on it so that's unlikely?

I guess I might ask what this stance is founded on? The JVM is just a binary that runs byte code. It's stable and runs well pretty much everywhere. If you insist the JVM has cooties, you could use Docker and abstract it away, it might be an ideal way to use it anyways depending on your work. The JVM /= Oracle JVM by the way. There is OpenJDK EDIT: Also I think recent Java releases have gotten into making self contain…

> I guess I might ask what this stance is founded on?

Kotlin has Kotlin/Native, so I was hoping there might be a similar initiative for Clojure. But, a few reasons:

* Startup time

* Ability to deploy/share a binary

* The JVM just seems so "heavy" to me. It's certainly the only language runtime I know of that runs a persistent helper app, or asks to install an Ask toolbar upon installation.

* Bias against Oracle and Java

> Also I think recent Java releases have gotten into making self contained binaries

TIL, thanks.

Edit: edited.

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#33

Post by bpicolo »

kbd wrote: post #24

Are there any plans for a native version of Clojure? I'd rather avoid the JVM if possible, but I suppose the whole ecosystem is dependent on it so that's unlikely?

There’s a CLR port if you really just hate the JVM ;)

Can do NodeJS with Clojure a’la Clojurescript as well

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#34

Post by lsh »

jwr wrote: post #3

From the perspective of a (fairly large-scale at this point) app developer: I find it great that Clojure places such emphasis on backwards compatibility. In general, migration to newer Clojure versions is completely painless. The language has been designed by experienced and mature people and doesn't go through "let's throw everything out and start again" phases like so many other languages do.

S-expressions are perhaps partly responsible as well. They don't suffer the same brittleness as regular programming languages (is there a word for non-s-expression languages like c/python/etc?).

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#35

Post by lsh »

kbd wrote: post #32
preordained wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I might ask what this stance is founded on? The JVM is just a binary that runs byte code. It's stable and runs well pretty much everywhere. If you insist the JVM has cooties, you could use Docker and abstract it away, it might be an ideal way to use it anyways depending on your work. The JVM /= Oracle JVM by the way. There is OpenJDK EDIT: Also I think recent Java releases have gotten into making self contain…

> I guess I might ask what this stance is founded on? Kotlin has Kotlin/Native, so I was hoping there might be a similar initiative for Clojure. But, a few reasons: * Startup time * Ability to deploy/share a binary * The JVM just seems so "heavy" to me. It's certainly the only language runtime I know of that runs a persistent helper app, or asks to install an Ask toolbar upon installation. * Bias against Oracle and J…

> Startup time

Java is not as bad as you think. Clojure does takes a little longer though

> Ability to deploy/share a binary

there are jar files, but I know what you mean.

Interesting work happening in GraalVM land: https://www.innoq.com/en/blog/native-clojure-and-graalvm/

> Bias against Oracle and Java

yeah, well ... we're all biased. It helps us make decisions quickly ;)

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#36

Post by gavinpc »

krn wrote: post #12
jwr wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Swift was designed by highly experienced and mature compiler devs "Compiler devs". I think that is exactly my point. I should have said "app developers" or "system designers". If you listen to a Rich Hickey talk, you'll see that he is all about Getting Things Done in the real world, and much less about theoretical concepts. Language design is subservient to app developer needs.

I would put it simply: Clojure was designed by a thinker , who creates when he is away from the keyboard, not in front of it. When one releases and breaks the code in his head first, very few breaking changes are left for the public releases.

It takes one to know one. (Or so I would like to think.)

Rich's writing, presentations, and example of overall conceptual discipline and maturity have helped me focus on the essentials in ways that I could not overstate. I'm glad (but not surprised) to see so much appreciation for him around here, even among non-Clojurists (like myself).

At the risk of fanboyism, I am constantly referencing his ideas* to my team, and I give them my blessing to watch any of his talks as soon as they come out.

* That is, the old but sometimes obscure ideas whose importance he's brought to his audience.

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#37

Post by lsh »

dragandj wrote: post #28
kbd wrote: post #24

Are there any plans for a native version of Clojure? I'd rather avoid the JVM if possible, but I suppose the whole ecosystem is dependent on it so that's unlikely?

You can use GraalVM, I guess? But keep in mind that the code typically runs faster on the JVM. https://www.graalvm.org/

> the code typically runs faster on the JVM.

no, it typically doesn't. in certain edge cases the JVM does out perform Graal though.

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#38

Post by EuAndreh »

lsh wrote: post #34
jwr wrote: post #3

From the perspective of a (fairly large-scale at this point) app developer: I find it great that Clojure places such emphasis on backwards compatibility. In general, migration to newer Clojure versions is completely painless. The language has been designed by experienced and mature people and doesn't go through "let's throw everything out and start again" phases like so many other languages do.

S-expressions are perhaps partly responsible as well. They don't suffer the same brittleness as regular programming languages (is there a word for non-s-expression languages like c/python/etc?).

M-expressions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-expression

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#39

Post by kbd »

dan-f wrote: post #26
kbd wrote: post #24

Are there any plans for a native version of Clojure? I'd rather avoid the JVM if possible, but I suppose the whole ecosystem is dependent on it so that's unlikely?

In what context are you trying to avoid the JVM?

Posted response here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18703537

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#40

Post by kbd »

lsh wrote: post #35
kbd wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess I might ask what this stance is founded on? Kotlin has Kotlin/Native, so I was hoping there might be a similar initiative for Clojure. But, a few reasons: * Startup time * Ability to deploy/share a binary * The JVM just seems so "heavy" to me. It's certainly the only language runtime I know of that runs a persistent helper app, or asks to install an Ask toolbar upon installation. * Bias against Oracle and J…

> Startup time Java is not as bad as you think. Clojure does takes a little longer though > Ability to deploy/share a binary there are jar files, but I know what you mean. Interesting work happening in GraalVM land: https://www.innoq.com/en/blog/native-clojure-and-graalvm/ > Bias against Oracle and Java yeah, well ... we're all biased. It helps us make decisions quickly ;)

> Java is not as bad as you think. Clojure does takes a little longer though

For example, I have a Python script[1] that runs on each command prompt to print status about my current git repository. Just timed it, it runs in .08-.12 seconds within a repo and about .02s outside of a repo. I still want to rewrite it in C using libgit2 someday, but something like that would be unusable if it was written in Clojure.

[1] https://github.com/kbd/setup/blob/master/HOME/bin/repo.py

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