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The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

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Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#31

Post by empath75 »

austincheney wrote: post #9
stmfreak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With legalization, the drugs would be cleaner and dosing more predictable. We could then focus on helping addicts recover instead of worrying about the legal trouble and violence they might bring to our homes if we try to help them.

So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. In the past several years legally available drugs have been the most abused and resulted in significant problems. I am not claiming this as a justification for increased enforcement either. If you aren't solving for demand you either aren't taking the problem seriously or you have anterior motives to ending drug abuse.

Anybody who tells you that legalization is going to solve the problems of drug addiction is lying, but I don’t think anyone has ever argued seriously that it would.

The point of legalization is to solve the problems of having a massive black market for drugs. Getting people to quit using drugs is a different issue entirely.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#32

Post by umvi »

stmfreak wrote: post #3
pietroglyph wrote: post #2

> Then came the 1970s and the drug war. “Oh my goodness, now I have a business,” he thought. This guy is pretty interesting (and it's disappointing that he didn't do something more constructive with his skills), but this quote stood out the most to me. If you start limiting supply but not curtailing demand (e.g. a drug war), it makes it a lot more profitable to sell. And all that money makes it a lot easier for the s…

With legalization, the drugs would be cleaner and dosing more predictable. We could then focus on helping addicts recover instead of worrying about the legal trouble and violence they might bring to our homes if we try to help them.

Why is legalization better than decriminalization? If legal drugs are anything like Juuls, widespread availability and removal of social stigma will just cause use to explode and you have 10x as many addicts as you did before.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#33

Post by moftz »

piker wrote: post #25

> “If he makes a mistake... he'll find out he made a mistake when the devil welcomes him to breakfast,” said Madinger. That quote is great! Is it a common saying in dangerous fields?

I can't find any mention of "devil welcomes him to breakfast" other than that article and quotes from that article.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#34

Post by alistairSH »

umvi wrote: post #32
stmfreak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With legalization, the drugs would be cleaner and dosing more predictable. We could then focus on helping addicts recover instead of worrying about the legal trouble and violence they might bring to our homes if we try to help them.

Why is legalization better than decriminalization? If legal drugs are anything like Juuls, widespread availability and removal of social stigma will just cause use to explode and you have 10x as many addicts as you did before.

Juuls = e-cig/vape brandname

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#35

Post by krylon »

umvi wrote: post #32
stmfreak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With legalization, the drugs would be cleaner and dosing more predictable. We could then focus on helping addicts recover instead of worrying about the legal trouble and violence they might bring to our homes if we try to help them.

Why is legalization better than decriminalization? If legal drugs are anything like Juuls, widespread availability and removal of social stigma will just cause use to explode and you have 10x as many addicts as you did before.

AFAIK, countries that have tried loosening the laws on drugs have made good experiences. You would save a lot of money on law enforcement, plus you could tax drugs the way alcohol and tobacco are taxed now. With all that money, you could offer some reasonable therapy facilities.

Also, I don't think the stigma would just disappear for stuff like heroin. Heroin is terribly addictive, and staying away from it remains a good idea regardless of its legal status.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#36

Post by alistairSH »

umvi wrote: post #32
stmfreak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With legalization, the drugs would be cleaner and dosing more predictable. We could then focus on helping addicts recover instead of worrying about the legal trouble and violence they might bring to our homes if we try to help them.

Why is legalization better than decriminalization? If legal drugs are anything like Juuls, widespread availability and removal of social stigma will just cause use to explode and you have 10x as many addicts as you did before.

Does decriminalization do much to stop the crime and violence on the supply side of the illicit drug market? I'm assuming decriminalization makes possession of small amounts ok, but dealing and importing are still major offenses?

The dealer still has to import the drugs the same way as he does now, build a network of street dealers, etc.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#37

Post by austincheney »

quetzthecoatl wrote: post #27
austincheney wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it did work for Portugal. Portugal does not have the pharmaceutical industry that the US does. Due to criminalization of certain drugs and the extreme enforcement thereof demand for legally available drugs has never been higher in the US. The pharmaceutical industry is more than happy to fill that gap and meet the economic demand. By ignoring the data and eliminating access to controlled substances demand has no…

The argument is that people are going for legal more potent, more dangerous drugs in US because much harmless marijuana is illegal (Just as when alcohol was prohibited people switched from wine and beer to moonshine). This is true everywhere including US. Not just Portugal. So when relatively harmless recreational drugs are decriminalized, people won't go for fentanyl or oxy. Then of course we have the moral argument…

You are deliberately ignoring what I am saying.

Criminalization/legalization alone does not curb demand for health damaging drugs. The only important goal in talking about drugs is reducing intake to increase personal health. Everything else is either a beneficial byproduct of that goal (crime, dependency, disease) or an antithetical motive.

Marijuana availability would not increase personal health and there is no indication persons consuming legally prescribed opioids would prefer legal and unprescribed marijuana alternatively merely because it is less unhealthy. You can legalize or criminalize all of it, but either way demand for consumption will continue to increase in the US according to the data available.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#38

Post by austincheney »

Nursie wrote: post #30
austincheney wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was pretty clear that I am not advocating for criminalization.

But you said that legalisation hasn't tackled addiction. So far I'm not aware of anywhere that the majorly addictive drugs (heroin, cocaine) have been legalised. Portugal has made inroads into its addiction problem with its decriminalisation program.

> But you said that legalisation hasn't tackled addiction.

It has not. Much of the opioid problem in the US is due to legally available drugs. Criminalizing those drugs would probably make it worse.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#39

Post by umvi »

alistairSH wrote: post #34
umvi wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is legalization better than decriminalization? If legal drugs are anything like Juuls, widespread availability and removal of social stigma will just cause use to explode and you have 10x as many addicts as you did before.

Juuls = e-cig/vape brandname

Well my point was that they were originally intended to reduce nicotine addiction, but they are actually increasing nicotine addiction due to being perceived as safe alternative to cigarettes by teens. I suspect that legalizing drugs such that they are "cleaner and dosing more predictable" (aka "more safe") would inevitably cause an increase in usage and therefore addiction.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#40

Post by HarryHirsch »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #17
abtinf wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is that simple. Here is a Nobel Prize winning economist agreeing with you: “See, if you look at the drug war from a purely economic point of view, the role of the government is to protect the drug cartel. That's literally true.” ― Milton Friedman

And the police/DEA/ATF/DHS "security" apparatus.

Baptists and Bootleggers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleggers_and_Baptists
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