Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#31

Post by boomboomsubban » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 1:19 AM UTC

psychedictic wrote: post #23

mindslight wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like that is more appropriately attributed to USG's persecution of whistleblowers. I'd bet that Snowden would rather have not fled the US, but he did not have that option. You can't build on a broken foundation - exposing domestic anticonstitutional corruption is more important than the fallout to foreign policy.

Your comment temporally corresponded with multiple simultaneous downvotes of my comment. There's no justification at all for informing any of our adversaries of details related to spying activity on them. Intentional or not, Mr. snowden's action have hurt USA.

We aren't at war with China, they are not our adversaries. Any harm caused to the US was a result of harm we had done to them.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#32

Post by icanhazcoins » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 1:25 AM UTC

killjoywashere wrote: post #27

A non-trivial bit of the problem is the highly fashionable attitude of refusing to do work that helps the Department of Defense. The fact that skilled labor is a limited resource for both nations, which means refusing to help is at least similar to aiding foreign powers, which are statistically dictatorships of one kind or another, seems to not factor into the set of moral ethoses that such folks espouse. Remember, i…

Additionally, I find it intellectually lazy to believe that assisting the military is morally wrong. What I think people (and in particular Americans) fail to consider is that if you really do feel that the political system is so corrupted that the will of the people has been subverted, what that actually morally requires you to do is to overthrow it. You cannot say "Oh well I didn't vote for the guy who started the war so I guess I'm ok". You are responsible for everything that happens and is happening, and if you really believe that the system is so badly broken that we are involved in illegitimate wars then you need to take responsibility for that and stop it. Stop paying your taxes, organize your community against it. Be willing to sacrifice to make it happen. By not doing this, you are disregarding the sacrifice that so many people make in support of the system (members of the military, administrators, etc).

It's reprehensible to disregard the sacrifices of others so callously yet be willing to sacrifice nothing yourself.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#33

Post by threatofrain » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 1:30 AM UTC

killjoywashere wrote: post #27

A non-trivial bit of the problem is the highly fashionable attitude of refusing to do work that helps the Department of Defense. The fact that skilled labor is a limited resource for both nations, which means refusing to help is at least similar to aiding foreign powers, which are statistically dictatorships of one kind or another, seems to not factor into the set of moral ethoses that such folks espouse. Remember, i…

An even more non-trivial part of that is the difference in pay

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#34

Post by mindslight » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 1:42 AM UTC

psychedictic wrote: post #28

mindslight wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no justification at all for informing any of our adversaries of details related to spying activity on them. Even under pain of imprisonment and torture? Everyone has their limits. > Mr. snowden's action have hurt USA. Only if you believe that "USA" is equivalent to the "US Government". If you believe that the United States means something more, like perhaps a society founded on individual rights, equal prot…

Nonsense. @snowden could have chosen to not told our adversaries about any spying activity upon them. Instead, he stole classified info that was far beyond the scope of domestic surveillance, in a pre-meditated way, then shared this with our adversaries. "domestic enemies in Maryland" is entirely your opinion. Are you an American citizen? What exactly is your justification (beyond Hollywood propaganda, news articles,…

You can easily look through my profile and infer my nationality and effort spent commenting. Yours, not so much.

This topic has been endlessly debated on HN. The general consensus here may be different than what you're used to, as it is harder to distract technical people with baseless excuses about "security" when we can understand the details of what the NSA (et al) must have had to do to implement their panopticon. The excuse that they do not operate domestically simply no longer holds water, and a standard heuristic of criminal investigation is to dig deeper after finding probable cause. Opening up the specifics of these secretive organizations to public scrutiny is the only way forward for a democratic society.

You clearly have an opposing view, and it is true our society needs to regain tolerance of disagreement. But it's just not a very interesting view to explore when it consists of the same exact "whataboutist" talking points that are broadcast through USG's media outlets.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#35

Post by RhodesianHunter » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 1:55 AM UTC

thenanyu wrote: post #30

killjoywashere wrote: post #27

A non-trivial bit of the problem is the highly fashionable attitude of refusing to do work that helps the Department of Defense. The fact that skilled labor is a limited resource for both nations, which means refusing to help is at least similar to aiding foreign powers, which are statistically dictatorships of one kind or another, seems to not factor into the set of moral ethoses that such folks espouse. Remember, i…

I would happily do this work if it was accessible and lucrative. I think plenty of SV nerds would. I don't doubt that there is a significant contingent that are politically opposed like you describe, but I don't think the compensation can match what is being offered these days for talent.

Exactly what I was going to say.

I have no moral issues with (most) code related DOD work, but it just doesn't pay comparably.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#36

Post by ryanmarsh » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 1:55 AM UTC

thenanyu wrote: post #30

killjoywashere wrote: post #27

A non-trivial bit of the problem is the highly fashionable attitude of refusing to do work that helps the Department of Defense. The fact that skilled labor is a limited resource for both nations, which means refusing to help is at least similar to aiding foreign powers, which are statistically dictatorships of one kind or another, seems to not factor into the set of moral ethoses that such folks espouse. Remember, i…

I would happily do this work if it was accessible and lucrative. I think plenty of SV nerds would. I don't doubt that there is a significant contingent that are politically opposed like you describe, but I don't think the compensation can match what is being offered these days for talent.

It is accessible and quite lucrative. My biggest customer was the US Navy. We did great things.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#37

Post by resters » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 2:02 AM UTC

Hackers breaching US Navy contractors tells us one important thing: That the US Navy is not doing adequate due diligence on the firms it allow to be contractors.

This story is part of the campaign to present China as an unethical, capable adversary and threat. In reality, China wants to trade peacefully with the US and the aggression is nearly 100% on the US side and is meant to garner all the benefits of threat-oriented chest pounding for US politicians.

The #1 rule of being a citizen should be "don't let them tell you who to fear or who to hate". Sadly, the NYT, Bloomberg, and the WSJ are all telling us to hate and fear China, when it's obvious that the US has domestic political motives in mind.

In the US, leaders need an enemy or the conversation might turn to things like "why do we have poisonous drinking water?" or "Why has there been a trend of downward mobility?" or "Why didn't anyone get punished for Snowden's revelations or for the lies that led to the Iraq war?"

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#38

Post by mindslight » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 2:21 AM UTC

resters wrote: post #37

Hackers breaching US Navy contractors tells us one important thing: That the US Navy is not doing adequate due diligence on the firms it allow to be contractors. This story is part of the campaign to present China as an unethical, capable adversary and threat. In reality, China wants to trade peacefully with the US and the aggression is nearly 100% on the US side and is meant to garner all the benefits of threat-orie…

> In reality, China wants to trade peacefully with the US and the aggression is nearly 100% on the US side

You don't need to make this claim to support the rest of your point. I agree with the gist of your comment but think this point makes it easier to attack the overall message.

Personally, I think China is trading with the goal of jump starting their economy, and then seeing where they end up. China's incentives aren't to act within our paradigm of free trade, but to attempt to operate on it. If free trade is truly a Schelling point, then we'll remain there. Otherwise at the end of the day, holding currency or title to imaginary property won't matter, but where the factories are located will.

But that isn't really relevant to the larger point that all this finger pointing at China (or Russia, depending on the month) is just basic scapegoating to cover the asses of negligent contractors and corrupt government.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#39

Post by reaperducer » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 2:23 AM UTC

killjoywashere wrote: post #27

A non-trivial bit of the problem is the highly fashionable attitude of refusing to do work that helps the Department of Defense. The fact that skilled labor is a limited resource for both nations, which means refusing to help is at least similar to aiding foreign powers, which are statistically dictatorships of one kind or another, seems to not factor into the set of moral ethoses that such folks espouse. Remember, i…

OTOH, the military has the ability to manufacture whatever labor it needs.

Out of potato peelers? You, you, and you grab some spuds.

Out of computer engineers? You, you, and you head to training.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#40

Post by killjoywashere » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 2:24 AM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #39

killjoywashere wrote: post #27

A non-trivial bit of the problem is the highly fashionable attitude of refusing to do work that helps the Department of Defense. The fact that skilled labor is a limited resource for both nations, which means refusing to help is at least similar to aiding foreign powers, which are statistically dictatorships of one kind or another, seems to not factor into the set of moral ethoses that such folks espouse. Remember, i…

OTOH, the military has the ability to manufacture whatever labor it needs. Out of potato peelers? You, you, and you grab some spuds. Out of computer engineers? You, you, and you head to training.

ah, remarkably less so than you might think.