Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why airlines tend to be unionized

philip.greenspun.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 69 posts

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#31

Post by notahacker »

timthorn wrote: post #10
tomerico wrote: post #8

A pilot's job is one of the easiest to replace with a computer. It is already happening in the military. In fact, the only actual role of a pilot today is to take off and land the plane, the rest is auto-pilot. If the unions make it so hard to employ humans, it would only give incentive to further develop auto pilots, and the problem will solve itself.

Landing is typically done on autopilot these days; it is done manually to maintain a pilot's rating or for exceptional reasons.

Actually, the exact opposite is true - pilots must use autopilot on a certain number of occasions to retain their certification to use it on low visibility approaches, but otherwise generally do so only when visibility is severely restricted.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#32

Post by gaius »

nhebb wrote: post #29

"the FAA will not allow this because those replacement pilots, though competent with the airplane, do not have experience with the specific operating rules of the airline " Then why don't the airlines standardize their operating rules?

The unions would see that as management imposing a change in working practices and go on strike.

Remember, the current system favours the unions.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#33

Post by sethg »

martingordon wrote: post #22

So why don't junior pilots form their own union? Wouldn't that introduce more competition into the labor market and equalize (or at least rationalize) pay between "junior" and "senior" pilots? Or is aviation one of those industries where working your way from the bottom is celebrated?

The boundaries of a bargaining unit are set by the location of work and the job classification. These are obviously fuzzy categories and sometimes the National Labor Relations Board has to step in and decide which subset of workers gets to be in a bargaining unit. However, there’s just nothing in the law that lets workers say “OK, everyone with ten years or more seniority will be represented by Union X, and everyone with less seniority will be represented by Union Y, and we will negotiate separately for contracts.”

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#34

Post by wazoox »

tomerico wrote: post #8

A pilot's job is one of the easiest to replace with a computer. It is already happening in the military. In fact, the only actual role of a pilot today is to take off and land the plane, the rest is auto-pilot. If the unions make it so hard to employ humans, it would only give incentive to further develop auto pilots, and the problem will solve itself.

Like the Sao Paulo-Paris A330 that crashed in the ocean mid flight? Was on autopilot, wasn't it ?

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#35

Post by Symmetry »

netcan wrote: post #23

Not sure I'm convinced about this point: how can we explain a 19:1 pay differential..? The answer is to look at who controls the pilot's union: very senior pilots. Why wouldn't the junior majority vote out the senior minority or leave the union?

By the time new members get organized enough to start pushing for reforms, they're not far away from becoming senior members. They can't leave the union because the union doesn't want the airline to hire non-union workers.

It isn't as bad as the UAW, though, where the majority of the voters aren't even workers any more but rather retirees.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#36

Post by ahi »

Symmetry wrote: post #35
netcan wrote: post #23

Not sure I'm convinced about this point: how can we explain a 19:1 pay differential..? The answer is to look at who controls the pilot's union: very senior pilots. Why wouldn't the junior majority vote out the senior minority or leave the union?

By the time new members get organized enough to start pushing for reforms, they're not far away from becoming senior members. They can't leave the union because the union doesn't want the airline to hire non-union workers. It isn't as bad as the UAW, though, where the majority of the voters aren't even workers any more but rather retirees.

Retirees don't vote.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#37

Post by ahi »

"Union agreements and seniority-based schedule assignments lead to reduced safety for passengers, as the least experienced workers are pushed the hardest and get the least amount of rest. "

The reason junior officers get paid 16k a year is because there are people willing to do the job for 16k a year. Without the unions airlines could probably get volunteers (much like Greenspun who is certainly not doing it for the money) to fly their planes. But then we would have every pilot inexperienced, overworked, and underpaid.

Yes, the airlines are a mess, but he provided no evidence for his arguments. Southwest has been consistently profitable. Why haven't the pilots eaten up all their profits?

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#38

Post by loewenskind »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #11
loewenskind wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can fly anywhere I want with insane convenience. At least you could before 9/11. Pre-9/11 I would have flown anywhere that was more than 3 hours away. Now I would drive up to 10 hours to avoid flying.

It adds 15 minutes to the trip. It makes no pragmatic sense to shift your crossover point back seven hours in response. But I suppose if you derive some serious negative utility from security inspections that would make sense for your personal case.

15 minutes? I have to arrive up to 2 hours earlier now. The security scan itself doesn't take so long but rather everything leading up to it.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#39

Post by matwood »

loewenskind wrote: post #5
jamesaguilar wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fine with it. I don't care very much whether airline profits go to the company or the employees. I don't care if pilots have to deal with an unstable industry. As far as I'm concerned they are complicit in it by voting the way they do in union elections. They have brought it upon themselves. (With apologies to all the pilots that vote for saner policies -- I tend to see large groups of strangers as single entitie…

>I can fly anywhere I want with insane convenience. At least you could before 9/11. Pre-9/11 I would have flown anywhere that was more than 3 hours away. Now I would drive up to 10 hours to avoid flying.

At least you could before 9/11. Pre-9/11 I would have flown anywhere that was more than 3 hours away. Now I would drive up to 10 hours to avoid flying.

I read this all the time on HN, but I fly relatively frequently I have never had a problem flying post 9/11. Flying out Denver I can get through security in 10-15 minutes tops. The biggest domestic problems I have had have either been delays at the giant airports (ATL for example) or a single long security line at small airports in BFE.

I've been stopped twice for forgetting to leave my money clip in the car (it has a small knife on it). The TSA guy was polite and simply asked if I wanted to throw it away or mail it back to myself. Both times I paid the $10 to mail it back since it was a gift and is engraved. After filling out the paperwork they then put me through the express line so I wouldn't be delayed any further. For a mistake that was clearly on my part they were beyond reasonable.

The biggest issue I've had in the last 10 years was getting shaken down by customs in Jamaica. Third world countries, fun stuff.

I'm sure there are people who have issues while trying to fly, but I don't think it's as widespread as people like to believe. I recently spoke to a friend of mine who happens to be an executive who travels 3 weeks of each month. She has had zero problems from a security standpoint, with delays from weather being her biggest complaint.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#40

Post by anamax »

yardie wrote: post #15

who controls the pilot's union: very senior pilots. Most airlines are made of a lot of junior pilots. Junior is a relative term because you can be with the airline for a decade and be considered a junior. The senior pilot making $300k is an anomaly at the airline, like the Welfare Queen in politics. So when the airline wants to cut salaries these dozen (for a large airline) or so senior guys, that are almost near ret…

> Also, for airlines the biggest expense is the plane itself. labor is such a minuscule part of the operating budget that if they are in trouble cutting there is just laughable excercise. The pilots, the flight crew, and the ground crew know this. A declining airline will, in this order, cut routes, crew, and then aircraft. With the aircraft being the 800lb gorilla in the room.

Is it expense or what's fixed vs variable?

When you cut routes, you save gas and possibly landing fees. Over time, you save variable labor costs as well. When you layoff people, you save their fixed costs.

When you park a plane, you still owe payments to GE capital. You still have to do a lot of the maintenance. You probably have to pay for parking.

Post reply on HN