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The Problem with Feedback

theatlantic.com

31–40 of 45 posts

Re: The Problem with Feedback

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber's feedback is the most frustrating because I can't rate in the only instances that I'd care to. - Driver calls and asks where I'm going then cancels ride - Driver drives up to me and asks where I'm going then cancels ride - Driver drives around aimlessly for 40min trying to get me to cancel and then cancels ride - Driver for Uber eats picks up food, steals it, then cancels ride In all of these instances the canc…

I've seen this quite often too! In my experience it happened more with Lyft and when I hailed a ride from the airport. I live pretty close to the airport (6-20 mins) so the sneaky drivers that see the fare will call me and confirm my destination. I confirm and then they just sit in their waiting spot indefinitely, hoping I cancel. Understanding their strategy, I walk down to the lower level with the app still open an…

I’ve never used Lyft from the driver’s perspective. Why would they not want to pick you up? Do short trips pay less per unit time than longer trips? I would have thought Lyft’s algorithms would automatically take trip length into account.

Re: The Problem with Feedback

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen this quite often too! In my experience it happened more with Lyft and when I hailed a ride from the airport. I live pretty close to the airport (6-20 mins) so the sneaky drivers that see the fare will call me and confirm my destination. I confirm and then they just sit in their waiting spot indefinitely, hoping I cancel. Understanding their strategy, I walk down to the lower level with the app still open an…

I’ve never used Lyft from the driver’s perspective. Why would they not want to pick you up? Do short trips pay less per unit time than longer trips? I would have thought Lyft’s algorithms would automatically take trip length into account.

At the San Diego airport Uber and Lift drivers wait in a queue, like the taxi drivers do, most of the time. 30 minutes of sitting around is not unusual. If you end up with a short trip your average wage is very bad. I think this is what happens at most airports.

Re: The Problem with Feedback

#33
post #6

I've been working on a startup in the user feedback space [1] full-time for the past 3.5 years, and love to see the topic of user feedback on Hacker News. Uber doesn't want your feedback because they care about your ideas/opinions. They want it because it's critical to their business. Put yourself in their shoes. They have 75 million users and 3 million drivers. A critical part of growth is retention: not bleeding th…

Canny is awesome. I've had huge problems getting feedback for my profitable side projects, so I built https://www.emojion.io (same goal, different approach) to drastically reduce the barrier for visitors and see there, within one week over 200 useful user responses were submitted. I usually spend half an hour a day responding to the feedback and maybe adjusting my roadmap. It definitely changed my workflow and my users are happy to be heard.

Re: The Problem with Feedback

#35
post #29

Some places want you to rate the employee (e.g. 1 to 5 stars at touchpad at checkout, or at toilet exit at airport in some countries). Just about every time I want to rate the employee as a 5, and the company (or management?) at a low rating because the business has obviously been the one to screw up, not the employee. Asking to rate an employee is a sign to me that the company service is poor.

Also, they hired the employee and should be around enough to be able to evaluate if the employee is doing what they want.

Re: The Problem with Feedback

#36
Cybernetics didn't fail expectations. It works astonishingly well. But it seems people had some pretty weird and dumb expectations when lifting it from the domain of hardware and into more "fuzzy" real-world systems. Feedback loops are an incredibly powerful tool, but they get misused (often purposefully), and then the blame for that misuse somehow falls on the feedback system.

Consider:

1) As a user, won't be satisfied with a feedback system if the company on the other end is evil. Take Uber as an example. The tension between drivers and passengers isn't caused by the 5-star rating itself. It has another critical component - that Uber set the system to squeeze out as much value out of drivers as possible. Since they essentially optimize for bad driver treatment, drivers get defensive, and this screws up user experience. Hitting with 1-stars until morale improves isn't the solution; not exploiting people is. Similar thing happens in some customer service interactions, where rating is - again - not a signal on quality, but on whether or not I hate the other person enough to want them to lose their job.

2) A rating system won't work for you if you connect it to a money-printing machine. This one should have been obvious immediately, and definitely should be by now. This is why Amazon, eBay, Yelp, et al. have problems with reviews. As long as their presence or absence impacts immediate sales, they'll be gamed to the point of uselessness.

3) Some companies like to deploy ratings to skip doing the work, and then they cry foul when the results don't materialize. Again, Uber won't solve driver problems with star ratings; that would require actually meeting and evaluating people. I can hear the screams - "but that doesn't scale!". So what. I want to go to the Moon by lifting myself by my own bootstraps, but I can't, because that's not how physics works. I'm not going to cry that I can't get what I want without doing the work that's necessary to get it.

4) Feedback loops must be actually closed for them to work. I.e. not just collecting the data, but acting on it.

5) If you can't capture the entirety of your vision in directly measurable metrics (and you probably can't), then don't follow them blindly. In particular, be mindful of what you actually measure, 'lest you end up pissing off a lot of users and defending yourself with "data told me so". "You make what you measure" works both ways.

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TL;DR: Blame the people/companies deploying feedback systems for being clueless or having malicious intent, not the feedback systems themselves for simply working the way they work.

Re: The Problem with Feedback

#37
post #12

One issue I have is when feedback is clearly being collected with intent to manipulate, like with a cable company. They ask you to specifically rate the individual person, and you know that the person sitting in a call center all day might lose their job because of a bad rating. You might give a good rating even if you had bad service (or at least you’ll give a 5 instead of a 3). Then the company turns around and adv…

>and you know that the person sitting in a call center all day might lose their job because of a bad rating. It's more likely they'd lose their job if they consistently receive bad ratings, from several different customers. And they should. Given how much it costs to bring on new employees it's more likely that one bad review results in a consultation, additional training, etc.

Given the economic situation of call center employees, nobody deserves a good service to be honest. I don't swallow the cost excuse because we wouldn't see that much fluctuation in jobs like these if true.

Re: The Problem with Feedback

#38
One feedback loop for the customer might be insight in what type of other customers like a place.

I actually might visit a place if I know that a particular group of people strongly dislikes it. People have different tastes and a review system might account for that.

It would require people to fill in a few questions about themselves. Or it needs cross-referenced with Facebook likes or something like that.

This information can belong to the people!

Re: The Problem with Feedback

#39

One feedback loop for the customer might be insight in what type of other customers like a place. I actually might visit a place if I know that a particular group of people strongly dislikes it. People have different tastes and a review system might account for that. It would require people to fill in a few questions about themselves. Or it needs cross-referenced with Facebook likes or something like that. This infor…

Can we identify groups of people by similar interests and personality type and classify them with a label? It doesn't seem like it would promote inclusivity and diversity among people with disparate interests since we are all "equal" but it would be very helpful for this use case. We can create labels by having people self identify who they think they are.

U.S. Patent Pending

Re: The Problem with Feedback

#40
post #12

One issue I have is when feedback is clearly being collected with intent to manipulate, like with a cable company. They ask you to specifically rate the individual person, and you know that the person sitting in a call center all day might lose their job because of a bad rating. You might give a good rating even if you had bad service (or at least you’ll give a 5 instead of a 3). Then the company turns around and adv…

>and you know that the person sitting in a call center all day might lose their job because of a bad rating. It's more likely they'd lose their job if they consistently receive bad ratings, from several different customers. And they should. Given how much it costs to bring on new employees it's more likely that one bad review results in a consultation, additional training, etc.

I don't like getting bad customer service, but I don't dislike it so much that I'm able to discard my empathy and say someone "should" be fired.

I picture myself being let go from my job, I begin to feel the stress of doing the first inkling of planning that would be needed to survive that, and I decide that I didn't have such a bad time that I feel like pressing that one-star button, so I just close the feedback page instead.

I wouldn't want people to rate me one-star, so I don't rate other people one-star.

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