I think is pretty cool, yes. But fix error messages please.
Clojure REBL [video]
31–40 of 101 posts
Re: Clojure REBL [video]
#32From the license: > You may not use REBL for commercial use.
Sometimes it seems as if Cognitect just doesn't want people to use Clojure. It's like they looked at the results from the survey[0], created a tool that appears to address some of the main gripes that people have, and then proceeded to say "screw you" to all of the people that use Clojure commercially and may actually pay for Datomic... [0]: https://danielcompton.net/2018/03/28/clojure-survey-2018
Closed source I understand, they must have something in there they don't want to give away completely for free. But "no commercial use" just cuts out something like 90% of the user base. Because depending on your definition of those terms it would also apply to anyone building anything with it that they plan on selling in the future. Even paid tutorials on how to use it would be out of the question.
It's like "how to not get people to use your tool" 101
Re: Clojure REBL [video]
#33From the license: > You may not use REBL for commercial use.
Sometimes it seems as if Cognitect just doesn't want people to use Clojure. It's like they looked at the results from the survey[0], created a tool that appears to address some of the main gripes that people have, and then proceeded to say "screw you" to all of the people that use Clojure commercially and may actually pay for Datomic... [0]: https://danielcompton.net/2018/03/28/clojure-survey-2018
Haskell's motto is "avoid success at all costs", but it feels like it applies more to Clojure.
I genuinely believe that Clojure could have taken over the world if it had a more sensible open-source governance model.
Re: Clojure REBL [video]
#34I need a Clojure job, their technology seems like it's from the year 3000 and I'm over here in PHP land banging rocks together Their idiomatic database can travel through time, they focus intently on composition, referential integrity, immutability to the database level They have specs which can validate things typically better than types and they compose They focus on shared protocols which gives them amazing levera…
My thoughts exactly!
I’ve only been playing with Clojure for a few months, but it feels like a spaceship. This addition just adds to the mystique.
My first thought upon seeing the REBL browser in action was that it looks like those protocols enable something like Smalltalk’s amazing integrated full-system dev environment—the most intriguing aspect of that language to me by far—to the Clojure world, without having to buy into the “system as image” paradigm that Smalltalk seems to require. Can anyone with Smalltalk experience comment on how accurate this hunch is? It just screams “best of both worlds” to this noob.
EDIT: I should have read the other comments first: it looks like this is a common sentiment, which is very encouraging. I’d still like to hear the first impressions of a Smalltalk veteran.
Re: Clojure REBL [video]
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I can't really do it in Python and it makes me sad. That really bugs me with a great many popular languages. There's a REPL, but the libraries and tooling don't really embrace it.
Yeah, PHP supports a REPL too! I sometimes found it useful when working on mediawiki to debug issues when a full blown debugger wasn't necessary. And if you were familiar with the various internal API's it was pretty easy to do simple maintenance tasks through the REPL without needing to write a script.
Which one do you use? I ended up rolling my own years ago and it's worked out fine (other than the fact I've never gotten readln support working), but I've noticed a proliferation of other solutions since about the release of PHP 7 and wonder if they're an improvement.
Re: Clojure REBL [video]
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
Clojure has facilities for seamless interop with Java (or whatever platform it's hosted on). A lot of times when inter-operating with Java libraries, you get back an opaque Object with associated methods when you'd normally expect a transparent Clojure map or some other pure data structure if you were interacting with a purely Clojure library. Datafy is just a protocol that allows you to transform those opaque Object…
I still fail to see how methods are not data in the general sense, but while trying to answer my own question, it seems that "data" in clojure means roughly "Either an atomic type[1] or a collection" 1: an "atom" in clojure is not what it is in traditional lisp lingo; is there a name in clojure for type that is roughly the union of: symbol, number, character, boolean ? perhaps "primitive"?
Within Clojure almost all data is directly serializable to data literals. Java objects don't have this property directly and are guaranteed to exposed everything via methods. Datafy and Nav just give Clojure the power to codify your observations. You're right for the most part, this is just the tools for interop (and a bunch of cool stuff you can build on top of it).
Re: Clojure REBL [video]
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
Clojure has facilities for seamless interop with Java (or whatever platform it's hosted on). A lot of times when inter-operating with Java libraries, you get back an opaque Object with associated methods when you'd normally expect a transparent Clojure map or some other pure data structure if you were interacting with a purely Clojure library. Datafy is just a protocol that allows you to transform those opaque Object…
I still fail to see how methods are not data in the general sense, but while trying to answer my own question, it seems that "data" in clojure means roughly "Either an atomic type[1] or a collection" 1: an "atom" in clojure is not what it is in traditional lisp lingo; is there a name in clojure for type that is roughly the union of: symbol, number, character, boolean ? perhaps "primitive"?
Perhaps “value”? The language is data-oriented, and everything you mentioned in [1] except for “symbol” easily falls within that. In Clojure, a symbol always evaluates to a specific value too, so it seems like a good fit.
A Clojure atom is one of the few types that is not immutable, but the way it is updated is pretty strictly enforced by the language, and references to it at any given point in time are still immutable.
I don’t have any insight into your broader question.
Re: Clojure REBL [video]
#38When clojure meets smalltalk
And I am so stoked for it. Smalltalk did a few things right that have still not been properly copied by other systems, but smalltalk itself was doomed to obscurity the second all the major implementations went for the Common Lisp-style "ship the system as an image" brain damage. While clojure is far from perfect, it actually has a story for shipping your code, in a form where you don't need to embarrass yourself when…
Can you say more about what makes it “far from perfect” besides the error messages? What are its other weaknesses? I’m still in the honeymoon phase and want to hear more from folks who have shipped code.
Re: Clojure REBL [video]
#39Glad to see more work being done on the general purpose data browser concept.
I've been spending occasional free moments working on one since 2014[0], and this is the first time I've come across something with any significant overlap in conception[1].
It still blows my mind that I can describe the concept to programmers (and/or show a video demo) and have the most typical response be along the lines of, "but what would you use it for?" (To be fair though: this is certainly in part—though not totally—due to the particulars of the poor job I've done attempting to communicate the idea, e.g. by demoing visualizations of algorithms on random data.)
It would be easier to answer what you wouldn't use it for. When is it not useful to see the data your code is operating on? When in the video he talked about having one monitor for the data browser and one for emacs, that made complete sense to me. I see writing programs in the future turning out that way: you get a dedicated, mostly passive display of the data your code is operating while you program.
It's almost like we're so trained at having to deal with invisible program data it ceases to be obvious that in building something whose fundamental goal is to transform data (i.e. computer programs), one would benefit enormously through the ability to see the data being transformed.
Prior to this the best way I had of describing the purpose was to point to the Chrome dev tools object explorer and Firefox's console.table(...)[2]. But this is the first thing I've seen also taking on the 'unifying' aspect of the project, based on—as was pointed out in the video—the fact that data tends to come in a limited number of shapes.
[0] http://symbolflux.com/projects/avd
[1] There are still significant differences though—for one thing mine is focused much more on time-evolution of data. Where he showed the quick display of a graph of a set of numeric values for instance, I'm building a corresponding feature but it would instead work with a single numeric variable and display a graph of its values over time.
[2] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Console/tab...
Re: Clojure REBL [video]
#40Smalltalk has had this type of thing for years...