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Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

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Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#31
post #25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to learn a language but I don't think I'll be using it with anybody anytime soon. But I'd be happy to understand a newspaper or Wikipedia. What would be the recommended way to learn vocabulary if Anki is not an option? I've been using Duolingo but it really feels like a glorified Anki

English is my first language. I didn't use Anki to learn English vocabulary. I learned by reading books and talking about them to people. For language learning, I'm skeptical of any method that doesn't resemble real-world use.

"For language learning, I'm skeptical of any method that doesn't resemble real-world use."

How many languages that are not English have you learned?

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#32

I'm a bit surprised these systems still pay off for people. How many contexts require learning large bodies of unrelated facts, these days? Everything's just a google away. Even in the past, the only context where I would have used a system like this is language acquisition, and it's pretty clear that machine translation is going to surpass me very soon, if it hasn't already. For me, most interesting work involves co…

Spaced repetition is a very useful tool when making it through law school; it was for me and many of my cohort. It's very useful to improve scores on many tests, from first aid to tests for a hunting license. Is it very useful to 'really' learn? Only a bit. But there is value in improving test scores in its own right.

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#33

I'm a bit surprised these systems still pay off for people. How many contexts require learning large bodies of unrelated facts, these days? Everything's just a google away. Even in the past, the only context where I would have used a system like this is language acquisition, and it's pretty clear that machine translation is going to surpass me very soon, if it hasn't already. For me, most interesting work involves co…

All of them except programming, I'd say. That sounds like a 2000's-programmer-centric view of the world. Modern software is unique among all the fields I've worked in, in that it combines:

- people routinely working on systems far too complex for them to ever understand fully, and which often change completely on the timescale of weeks or months

- all the relevant data on the web in a format (like error messages or function names) that's easy for google to index, and easy for users to type

- people sitting in front of internet-connected computers anyway, and sufficient time slop that the team doesn't need an instantaneous answer

When I was knee-deep in water at an archaeological dig 15 years ago and my professor called out "What species of tree is that by your knee?", or when I was working on the catwalk last week and my lead called over "Check that the instrument in front of you is safe", googling it would have been completely infeasible, for several reasons. They'd just replace me with someone who knows what they're doing.

> Learn the conceptual framework, and you'll remember the details by partial reconstruction as you need them.

When I took organic chemistry, they taught the special cases of each reaction type first, and then generalized them at the end of the year. When I took engineering physics, they made us start with the generalized form first, and then we had to derive the specifics as needed. At the time, I was frustrated by the chemistry approach (why didn't you tell us there was a simpler form?!), but 20 years later, I remember a lot more chemistry than physics (even though my grades in physics were much better). I might be able to fumble through an SN2 reaction if I needed to, but I'm sure I couldn't do anything at all useful with Maxwell's Equations.

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#34
post #30
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to learn a language but I don't think I'll be using it with anybody anytime soon. But I'd be happy to understand a newspaper or Wikipedia. What would be the recommended way to learn vocabulary if Anki is not an option? I've been using Duolingo but it really feels like a glorified Anki

Content! Find video (movies, series), audio (-books, radio, podcasts). The best way is to get exposed to the language as much as possible (some people prefer humans for this, some people prefer multimedia), and then you can use Anki on the side. For example, I'm recently watching Fullmetal Alchemist in Japanese. I don't speak Japanese, but I've picked up 50 or so phrases. Sometimes I get a phrase stuck in my head wit…

Thank you

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#35
Spaced repetition is misunderstood. The original idea was to decrease the amount of time needed for long term memorization, over a different approach, like sequential or purely random repetition. However, many people now compare SRS over no repetition at all.

One big problem of SRS is that it gets unwieldy with larger chunks of information. SRS is good for vocabulary, bad for medical texts. The much bigger problem is that it takes an unpractical amount of calendar time. If you have three months, yes you can SRS a few hundred words. If you have a week and want full recollection at the end, you'll still repeat the list of words a couple dozen times and SRS makes no difference.

Another problem is the time it takes to prepare a database or a set of paper cards. By the time I prepare a database from a book I could probably read the thing twice or more times.

For exams that require recital of information (for example medical or law exams) mnemonic techniques like the Loci method (also called memory palace) are much more reliable and more practical.

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#37
post #11

I'm really skeptical of these sorts of memorization systems, not because I think they don't work (I think they do), but because I see it as a brain "hack" that goes against the grain. What do I mean by this? I think of our memories as a kind of most-frequently-used (MFU) cache. We remember best when we use the information all the time. So when we use this sort of spaced repetition we're trying to artificially "warm u…

Those approaches aren't mutually exclusive. You can easily learn theorems and math concepts using Anki and then apply them in practice.

You can learn words in foreign language using SRS and then use those words in conversations, when reading, watching a movie, etc.

I don't see any value in the purist approach your propose.

Also:

> So when we use this sort of spaced repetition we're trying to artificially "warm up" the cache in our brains.

No idea what this means. It is no more artificial than actively seeking out people to talk to just because you want to learn a new language, or forcing yourself to prove theorems just to better remember a mathematical concept.

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#38
post #34
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Content! Find video (movies, series), audio (-books, radio, podcasts). The best way is to get exposed to the language as much as possible (some people prefer humans for this, some people prefer multimedia), and then you can use Anki on the side. For example, I'm recently watching Fullmetal Alchemist in Japanese. I don't speak Japanese, but I've picked up 50 or so phrases. Sometimes I get a phrase stuck in my head wit…

Thank you

I must add: Listen, even if you do not understand. In time, the sounds become familiar, and in more time, effortless and automatic.

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#39
post #11

I'm really skeptical of these sorts of memorization systems, not because I think they don't work (I think they do), but because I see it as a brain "hack" that goes against the grain. What do I mean by this? I think of our memories as a kind of most-frequently-used (MFU) cache. We remember best when we use the information all the time. So when we use this sort of spaced repetition we're trying to artificially "warm u…

> If you're trying to learn a language, you should learn the way children learn their first language: by speaking.

I respectfully disagree here. After using the methods/strategies in the Fluent Forever book/videos/etc... (of which SRS is but one), while this strategy will work, its ultimately a longer road than necessary.

Kids don't get the chance to learn any other way than by observation and learning what not to do by inference. They're also very willing to make mistakes to tune their understanding. Adults tend not to be, taking the kids learning strategy as an adult is both ignoring the fact that you can take advantage of being an adult that can take in information differently, AND can speak to natives in a more structured way to much more easily learn grammar.

You'll still need to practice with native speakers no doubt, but knowing/learning words based on their frequency in the target language is something that you as an adult can take advantage of that kids realistically have to infer.

Immersion is great, but isn't ultimately a realistic option for most adults.

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#40
Been using Anki for a couple of years to learn Spanish. Was "ok".

I now use Anki to learn Spanish but now I add imagery (also known as a mnemonic). Our minds don't remember text too well - but coupled with imagery they do. To boot, Anki supports audio files to even further ingrain the memory if you have the time to create the cards.

If you're super imaginative, like the Russian Mnemonist Solomon Shereshevsky, (article on front page HN today) you wouldn't need to this do, you can create anything in your mind and recall it.

This can in way (it's physically limited whereas Anki is not) be taken to pen and paper as well using the Leitner system, a few file folders and some paper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leitner_system

So whatever you're trying to memorize - math, names, bible verses, numbers, languages -with imagery and with spaced repetition.

I bought a book a while ago called "Fluent Forever" (not associated). The author has released an app to learn languages now using this imagery method. I personally don't like the app as it takes away the flashcard creation process reducing your "learning experience" to just a few taps. Anki, Supermemo, -insert SRS program here-, albeit harder, it's much more rewarding.

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