Major AI conference is moving to Africa in 2020 due to visa issues • Hacker News Board

Re: Major AI conference is moving to Africa in 2020 due to visa issues

#31

Post by pjc50 » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:39 AM UTC

_jgdh wrote: post #18

rtpg wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as a datapoint: the author of cURL basically can’t go to the US right now for.... some reason https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2018/07/28/administrative-purgat... The opaqueness of the US system is pretty high. I do agree that other places have bigger problems. There won’t be too many conferences in Saudi Arabia I bet.

I love Daniel and the amazing work he’s done over the last several years ... but that blog reads like a parody. He’s complaining about filling forms like it’s the worst thing that’s ever happened to him. Meanwhile, for folks who aren’t American/Canadian/European/Australian, this is just a regular Tuesday. Typically when I file for visas I have to give detailed statements of all my bank accounts, all my investments, m…

I think the point is that nobody should be subjected to that level of intrusive bureaucracy.

Re: Major AI conference is moving to Africa in 2020 due to visa issues

#32

Post by PeterisP » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:42 AM UTC

lake99 wrote: post #14

raverbashing wrote: post #9

Unfortunately this sounds more like a gimmick than anything else. I have a small suspicion that those who decided for that never set foot in the countries considered for this (though I might be wrong). Though it is undeniable that there is talent there and we should try to make things easier to them, there is a limit and a compromise in making things not harder for other people as well. As someone familiar with 3rd w…

The locations seem like gimmicks to me quite a lot of times, and I don't mean ICLR conferences specifically. This time it happens to be politically motivated. At other times, it seems like they are picking exotic locations (Hawaii, Bahamas, etc.) because they know their university or company is going to fund it.

Exotic locations make sense - no matter where on globe you put the conference pretty much everyone has to fly there, and half of the people have to fly around half the world; and renting a large venue in such a location generally is cheaper than the major metropolises, where costs sometimes are extreme.

Re: Major AI conference is moving to Africa in 2020 due to visa issues

#33

Post by baddox » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:44 AM UTC

homarp wrote: post #8

from https://mobile.twitter.com/jm_alexia/status/1064206569141923... "Homosexuality is a criminal offense in Ethiopia, there's no way I'm ever submitting an abstract to #ICLR next year... I can't risk my life. I guess there will be more racial diversity, at the cost of no more #LGBT diversity."

Note that many US states also have sodomy laws, so in those states you’ve just got to hope that the 2003 Supreme Court decision sticks around.

Re: Major AI conference is moving to Africa in 2020 due to visa issues

#34

Post by nisuni » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:45 AM UTC

Jare wrote: post #16

nisuni wrote: post #7

I welcome the choice of moving the conference to a place where there are no logistic problems. As a scientist, however, I abhor organizations such as BlacksInAI: in science there’s no place for identity politics.

> in science there’s no place for identity politics Sounds like a "theory vs practice thing". Do you believe that identity should not, and/or does not affect a person's ability to practice science to the best of their potential? Of course I believe that in theory it should not but in practice it does. Organizations that try to correct, compensate, steer, etc. things towards where they should be, need to exist because…

I believe that identity may affect a person’s ability to do science, since there’s a correlations between identity and economic status.

That said, science is about equality of opportunities, not about equality of outcomes.

This means that we should of course strive for having easier access to universities for people of all backgrounds.

But after that Academia is PURE meritocracy.

Anyone who fights for more graduates with a certain identity, or more researchers with a certain identity, or more professors with a certain identity is SEVERELY misguided.

Re: Major AI conference is moving to Africa in 2020 due to visa issues

#35

Post by nolok » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:46 AM UTC

gmueckl wrote: post #28

Stories like this make me realize how unfairly privileged I actually am by having the passport that I have. I can go damn near anywhere in the world without much fuss. But I was just lucky enough to be born on the right side of some line that somebody drew on a map at some time in the past. The folks a few km distant - on the other side of that line - don't have that same luxury. It is kind of sad that we have this w…

As an extension to that, as someone else who has a french "powerful passport", you get so used to it that you feel very bothered when you actually need to get a visa for some place. Or worse, when you plan to go somewhere and a member of your group is not from such a country and needs a visa for a place that you didn't expect him to need one for.

I'm glad it's like this for me, and I hope the world can keep moving forward in that direction (as an european I'm kind of used to no borders between countries, the same way US people move between states); but at the same time I'm not sure how healthy it is to have such privileges and not even recognize them as such anymore.

I guess this is what causes the people from "our" countries calling themselves expat rather than immigrants (we've had a case this week again, where an english immigrant in France complained on twitter about immigrants coming to France ...).

I believe remembering what is a privilege you are lucky have is important, maybe if we were better at that we would have less on the modern "social stupidity" issues (another matter entirely but if people knew how lucky they were of not having polio and/or knew someone related to them who got it, they would be much less likely to avoid vaccination ...).

Re: Major AI conference is moving to Africa in 2020 due to visa issues

#36

Post by nisuni » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:47 AM UTC

andybak wrote: post #24

logicchains wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>things are not where they should be Citation needed. >There is nothing unscientific about it, but maybe you have data to prove otherwise. If you make a claim that something should be done, the burden on proof is on you to substantiate that claim.

> things are not where they should be Are you seriously trying to claim that science is a perfect meritocracy? Seriously?

Science is probably the most meritocratic field in the world.

Re: Major AI conference is moving to Africa in 2020 due to visa issues

#37

Post by throwawayvisa » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:49 AM UTC

gmueckl wrote: post #28

Stories like this make me realize how unfairly privileged I actually am by having the passport that I have. I can go damn near anywhere in the world without much fuss. But I was just lucky enough to be born on the right side of some line that somebody drew on a map at some time in the past. The folks a few km distant - on the other side of that line - don't have that same luxury. It is kind of sad that we have this w…

I'm someone who was born with a "shitty" passport. It's not the visa part, but rather I can't spontaneously just "go somewhere". All my travels need to be planned weeks, if not months, ahead. Fortunately, I'm on a path to acquire another citizenship and my children will have a "good" passport at birth.

Re: Major AI conference is moving to Africa in 2020 due to visa issues

#38

Post by nolok » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:51 AM UTC

baddox wrote: post #33

homarp wrote: post #8

from https://mobile.twitter.com/jm_alexia/status/1064206569141923... "Homosexuality is a criminal offense in Ethiopia, there's no way I'm ever submitting an abstract to #ICLR next year... I can't risk my life. I guess there will be more racial diversity, at the cost of no more #LGBT diversity."

Note that many US states also have sodomy laws, so in those states you’ve just got to hope that the 2003 Supreme Court decision sticks around.

Note that for a lot of people (me included), Africa is a social and legal black box and that is a major cause of concern for such issues (justified or not). Some countries have unreliable courts and/or people/tribal justice on the street is common, other are more modern, and except for a few specific countries I don't know which ones falls into which group.

(what I'm saying is, you're more scared of the unknown, and the various countries of Africa is much less known by the average hn'er than the american system)

Re: Major AI conference is moving to Africa in 2020 due to visa issues

#39

Post by baddox » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:51 AM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #25

andybak wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> things are not where they should be Are you seriously trying to claim that science is a perfect meritocracy? Seriously?

>Are you seriously trying to claim that science is a perfect meritocracy? I'm not making any particular claim about science. I'm making a general claim about reason: someone making a moral argument must provide some reason or evidence to support that argument. In this particular case, it means that if someone wants to make a claim that there is something morally wrong with the distribution of scientists with respect…

That’s a bit silly though. A citation can’t somehow “prove” a moral statement. I think it’s clear that the commenter was assuming the reasonable moral claim that ethnicity/gender/etc. should not affect one’s opportunities in science, and then claiming that there is still work to be done in achieving that goal.

Re: Major AI conference is moving to Africa in 2020 due to visa issues

#40

Post by gsich » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:53 AM UTC

andybak wrote: post #30

logicchains wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are you seriously trying to claim that science is a perfect meritocracy? I'm not making any particular claim about science. I'm making a general claim about reason: someone making a moral argument must provide some reason or evidence to support that argument. In this particular case, it means that if someone wants to make a claim that there is something morally wrong with the distribution of scientists with respect…

If this was an academic paper then maybe but it's a comment on a forum on a website and life is too short to marshal supporting evidence for every stated opinion. So I put it to you again, do you agree with the statement or do you disagree?

If no evidence is presented, the argument is invalid. This also applies to forums.