The human costs of Black Friday, explained by a former Amazon warehouse manager • Hacker News Board

Re: The human costs of Black Friday, explained by a former Amazon warehouse manager

#31

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 7:02 PM UTC

grardb wrote: post #22

cloakandswagger wrote: post #4

This article indicts Amazon of the following cruelties: - Expects workers to work compensated overtime during a busy period - Tracks worker performance - Expects people to take only their scheduled breaks, and writes them up if they're MIA for 30+ minutes - Requires workers to show up and work during their scheduled work hours The humanity! And this poor guy, working a non-specialized manager position attainable with…

How could you possibly come to that conclusion? > The military is known for being a bastion of sexism, but I had a worse experience at Amazon. > . . . the managers do not get any sort of break or lunch. Most of us just never ate. Everyone is on their feet for 12 hours a day. > Associates got a 30-minute lunch break, two 15-minute breaks, and an additional 15 minutes of “time off tasks.” Working 12 hours per day with…

[deleted]

Re: The human costs of Black Friday, explained by a former Amazon warehouse manager

#32

Post by cik2e » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

grardb wrote: post #22

cloakandswagger wrote: post #4

This article indicts Amazon of the following cruelties: - Expects workers to work compensated overtime during a busy period - Tracks worker performance - Expects people to take only their scheduled breaks, and writes them up if they're MIA for 30+ minutes - Requires workers to show up and work during their scheduled work hours The humanity! And this poor guy, working a non-specialized manager position attainable with…

How could you possibly come to that conclusion? > The military is known for being a bastion of sexism, but I had a worse experience at Amazon. > . . . the managers do not get any sort of break or lunch. Most of us just never ate. Everyone is on their feet for 12 hours a day. > Associates got a 30-minute lunch break, two 15-minute breaks, and an additional 15 minutes of “time off tasks.” Working 12 hours per day with…

From what I understand, many hourly workers look forward to the rare opportunity of getting paid 1.5x to work overtime. Also, a lot of the workers in these industries are hired as seasonal temps for the holidays. The salaried managers sound like they have it pretty rough, but I'm guessing that this is actually a pretty good job in the hourly category.

Re: The human costs of Black Friday, explained by a former Amazon warehouse manager

#33

Post by xt00 » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

Let’s say the workers unionize as the guy they interviewed suggests, what is the result? Basically they will push to change the system so that people don’t have to work as hard, it’s harder to fire people and have a seniority system. It’s quite possible that it would be better for the workers in that case but I do wonder if amazon could bypass a lot of these issues by just saying that people can’t work more than say 4 days a week during the rush season. So they end up hiring more workers to get the job done but people can’t complain that they are being overworked. I mean I’m not a fan of conspiracy theories but I wouldn’t be surprised if Walmart wasn’t silently cheering all the Amazon hate and pro union talk for their fulfillment centers..

Re: The human costs of Black Friday, explained by a former Amazon warehouse manager

#34

Post by Stratoscope » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

stochastic_monk wrote: post #29

grardb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could you possibly come to that conclusion? > The military is known for being a bastion of sexism, but I had a worse experience at Amazon. > . . . the managers do not get any sort of break or lunch. Most of us just never ate. Everyone is on their feet for 12 hours a day. > Associates got a 30-minute lunch break, two 15-minute breaks, and an additional 15 minutes of “time off tasks.” Working 12 hours per day with…

You make good points, but accuse the gp of not reading the article and talk about post scoring, both of which are against guidelines.

And this too:

> I'm quite sick of the average HN commenter's attitude towards Amazon.

Which is a bit insulting, as there is no "average HN commenter." We are all individuals and deserve to be treated as such.

Re: The human costs of Black Friday, explained by a former Amazon warehouse manager

#35

Post by Alex63 » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 7:09 PM UTC

hedvig wrote: post #30

grardb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could you possibly come to that conclusion? > The military is known for being a bastion of sexism, but I had a worse experience at Amazon. > . . . the managers do not get any sort of break or lunch. Most of us just never ate. Everyone is on their feet for 12 hours a day. > Associates got a 30-minute lunch break, two 15-minute breaks, and an additional 15 minutes of “time off tasks.” Working 12 hours per day with…

I don't know that its specific to Amazon but more generally comes from a core ideology of abiding by concepts of free market rules to the exclusion of concepts of humanity.

Just to be clear, in this case "free market rules" include:

1. Most customers choose to buy from the seller with the lowest price.

2. Employees are free to leave their employment if they find the conditions intolerable.

Which of these rules do you want to change?

Re: The human costs of Black Friday, explained by a former Amazon warehouse manager

#36

Post by intopieces » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 7:13 PM UTC

grardb wrote: post #22

cloakandswagger wrote: post #4

This article indicts Amazon of the following cruelties: - Expects workers to work compensated overtime during a busy period - Tracks worker performance - Expects people to take only their scheduled breaks, and writes them up if they're MIA for 30+ minutes - Requires workers to show up and work during their scheduled work hours The humanity! And this poor guy, working a non-specialized manager position attainable with…

How could you possibly come to that conclusion? > The military is known for being a bastion of sexism, but I had a worse experience at Amazon. > . . . the managers do not get any sort of break or lunch. Most of us just never ate. Everyone is on their feet for 12 hours a day. > Associates got a 30-minute lunch break, two 15-minute breaks, and an additional 15 minutes of “time off tasks.” Working 12 hours per day with…

Will you be more specific on the moral aspect here? Because from the article, it seems like the individuals working in the warehouse are compensated at a rate they agreed to (not being cheated of wages), are safe (no unsafe work practices are revealed here), and are given clear guidelines about their work tasks and standards (not being fired for discriminatory reasons).

I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth, so I will not make any flippant summaries of your post. I just want to know what Amazon would have to do to become moral: how long should the breaks be? How should they modify their performance policies? Etc.

Re: The human costs of Black Friday, explained by a former Amazon warehouse manager

#37

Post by heptathorp » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

cloakandswagger wrote: post #4

This article indicts Amazon of the following cruelties: - Expects workers to work compensated overtime during a busy period - Tracks worker performance - Expects people to take only their scheduled breaks, and writes them up if they're MIA for 30+ minutes - Requires workers to show up and work during their scheduled work hours The humanity! And this poor guy, working a non-specialized manager position attainable with…

Don't forget that this time of year is now ruined for this manager. But not enough to stop them from shopping on Amazon during Black Friday and contributing to those human costs.

"I boycott Prime Day, but I do shop on Amazon during Black Friday. I feel bad about it, but at the same time, I don’t think me not shopping will get Amazon to change its practices."

Re: The human costs of Black Friday, explained by a former Amazon warehouse manager

#38

Post by amelius » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 7:16 PM UTC

grardb wrote: post #22

cloakandswagger wrote: post #4

This article indicts Amazon of the following cruelties: - Expects workers to work compensated overtime during a busy period - Tracks worker performance - Expects people to take only their scheduled breaks, and writes them up if they're MIA for 30+ minutes - Requires workers to show up and work during their scheduled work hours The humanity! And this poor guy, working a non-specialized manager position attainable with…

How could you possibly come to that conclusion? > The military is known for being a bastion of sexism, but I had a worse experience at Amazon. > . . . the managers do not get any sort of break or lunch. Most of us just never ate. Everyone is on their feet for 12 hours a day. > Associates got a 30-minute lunch break, two 15-minute breaks, and an additional 15 minutes of “time off tasks.” Working 12 hours per day with…

Still, Amazon is probably treating their workers better than the average Chinese electronics factory or Indian textile company.

Re: The human costs of Black Friday, explained by a former Amazon warehouse manager

#39

Post by throwaway98121 » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 7:17 PM UTC

grardb wrote: post #22

cloakandswagger wrote: post #4

This article indicts Amazon of the following cruelties: - Expects workers to work compensated overtime during a busy period - Tracks worker performance - Expects people to take only their scheduled breaks, and writes them up if they're MIA for 30+ minutes - Requires workers to show up and work during their scheduled work hours The humanity! And this poor guy, working a non-specialized manager position attainable with…

How could you possibly come to that conclusion? > The military is known for being a bastion of sexism, but I had a worse experience at Amazon. > . . . the managers do not get any sort of break or lunch. Most of us just never ate. Everyone is on their feet for 12 hours a day. > Associates got a 30-minute lunch break, two 15-minute breaks, and an additional 15 minutes of “time off tasks.” Working 12 hours per day with…

Yeah, I think this is perfectly acceptable. If you don’t, don’t work for Amazon. Easy. I worked 12 hour days with a horrible boss as a fresh grad and only made $65k a year with a CS degree. This cat made $80k with a high school qualification, yet he still complains about a job he knowingly accepted.

I’m very interested to learn about Amazon tech, but instead I see an article just about everyday about how Amazon is some horrible sweatshop.

Re: The human costs of Black Friday, explained by a former Amazon warehouse manager

#40

Post by Spooky23 » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 7:18 PM UTC

chickenfries wrote: post #20

Waterluvian wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the crappy thing. We should pay you more to teach middle school math if you're a remarkably better teacher than the rest. In high school some of my favourite teachers were there mostly as a semi-retirement job. My favourite was a retired Intel architect who taught grade 10 electrical engineering. I would have been spoiled rotten if we were able to consistently attract those kinds of teachers.

It's pretty well agreed on HN that you get what you pay for, and anyone who complains about being unable to hire good developers simply just isn't compensating well enough. Why on earth would you not want to pay a better qualified teacher more? You must think that teaching is easy because the math is not complicated, yet most of the people who say this would loathe the idea of teaching for a living.

Compensation once adequate doesn’t yield directly in performance for higher level tasks.

Teachers apply knowledge, experience and work in a way that magically makes you smarter and informed. Their effectiveness is a measure of their skill and the students. The argument against the unions is bunk — paying a premium for a math PhD to teach high school is probably pretty dumb... experience makes you effective at teaching trigonometry, not PhD expertise in math.

Go to any catholic school and you’ll see woefully unpaid teachers doing an amazing job — because the parents and therefore the students are very motivated.

The discussions about developers are similar. You need to overpay for people in a few metros... but you can pay a lot less for skilled people all over the place. The wacky salaries in industry have more to do with control and investors than the actual work.