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Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

bbc.com

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Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#31

Post by SirHound »

man-and-laptop wrote: post #28
jcranmer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK can't say to any of them "Hold on a minute. Are you even a fi…

It does prohibit them among the 28 member countries. They call it free movement. Each of those country's immigration policies is a loophole for the other 27. It's a loss of border sovereignty.

No, you are arguing in bad faith (or ignorance).

British immigration policy is British immigration policy because as per European law it has mechanisms to prevent benefit immigration that is isn’t exercising

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:...

The fact is successive governments have rightly identified that both skilled and cheap labour from immigration is keeping our economy afloat. Otherwise we’d see them at least tap the brakes. But they haven’t.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#32

Post by jcranmer »

man-and-laptop wrote: post #28
jcranmer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK can't say to any of them "Hold on a minute. Are you even a fi…

It does prohibit them among the 28 member countries. They call it free movement. Each of those country's immigration policies is a loophole for the other 27. It's a loss of border sovereignty.

You are aware that the enlargement of the EU allowed existing countries to restrict migration from new countries, and that the UK government explicitly decided not to?

You are also aware that the EU specifically allows to limit the freedom of movement on "grounds of public policy, public security or public health"?

You are also aware that the recent migrant crisis of the past few years has caused these kinds of barriers to be raised in response? Proving that such restrictions are not just mere hypotheticals?

The European Union is, after all, not a suicide compact.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#33

Post by TomMarius »

jcranmer wrote: post #27
man-and-laptop wrote: post #23

Opinion on Brexit. Hopefully of interest: I'm torn on Brexit. If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK c…

> If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK can't say to any of them "Hold on a minute. Are you even a fi…

As soon as one is a EU citizen, they can move anywhere they want, without any restrictions, because these restrictions apply to immigrants only - as soon as one is a citizen, they are no longer immigrants. EU is different in this regard to the USA.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#34

Post by zero_iq »

man-and-laptop wrote: post #23

Opinion on Brexit. Hopefully of interest: I'm torn on Brexit. If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK c…

You are talking nonsense.

The UK has (and always has had) complete exemption from EU common immigration policy. The EU is not able to dictate immigration controls to the UK. If you have a problem with how the UK handles non-EU immigration then it is the fault of UK government policy, not the EU.

The complete exception from common immigration policy of the UK (along with Ireland and in some matters Denmark) is laid out in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (2009).

EDIT: to clarify -- I am referring to non-EU immigration here, not freedom-of-movement for EU citizens.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#35

Post by [deleted] »

jcranmer wrote: post #32
man-and-laptop wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does prohibit them among the 28 member countries. They call it free movement. Each of those country's immigration policies is a loophole for the other 27. It's a loss of border sovereignty.

You are aware that the enlargement of the EU allowed existing countries to restrict migration from new countries, and that the UK government explicitly decided not to? You are also aware that the EU specifically allows to limit the freedom of movement on "grounds of public policy, public security or public health"? You are also aware that the recent migrant crisis of the past few years has caused these kinds of barri…

[deleted]

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#36

Post by Apocryphon »

SirHound wrote: post #31
man-and-laptop wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does prohibit them among the 28 member countries. They call it free movement. Each of those country's immigration policies is a loophole for the other 27. It's a loss of border sovereignty.

No, you are arguing in bad faith (or ignorance). British immigration policy is British immigration policy because as per European law it has mechanisms to prevent benefit immigration that is isn’t exercising https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:... The fact is successive governments have rightly identified that both skilled and cheap labour from immigration is keeping our economy afloat. Otherw…

Seems conceivable that post-Brexit Tory governments would not do a whit about immigration for the sake of access to labor.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#37

Post by NLips »

man-and-laptop wrote: post #23

Opinion on Brexit. Hopefully of interest: I'm torn on Brexit. If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK c…

""" the UK can't say to any of them "Hold on a minute. Are you even a fit?" """

This only applies to workers, which roughly means that if they have a genuine job there. Historically, the UK has had more relaxed rules, I believe allowing pretty much indefinite leave to remain without work for EU citizens, but there is no requirement for the UK to allow that under the EU's "Freedom of movement".

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#38

Post by man-and-laptop »

zero_iq wrote: post #34
man-and-laptop wrote: post #23

Opinion on Brexit. Hopefully of interest: I'm torn on Brexit. If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK c…

You are talking nonsense. The UK has (and always has had) complete exemption from EU common immigration policy. The EU is not able to dictate immigration controls to the UK. If you have a problem with how the UK handles non-EU immigration then it is the fault of UK government policy, not the EU. The complete exception from common immigration policy of the UK (along with Ireland and in some matters Denmark) is laid ou…

Really? Because "freedom of movement" seems to be the sticking point in the Brexit negotiations. The UK can't go the Norway route because it doesn't want "free movement" into its territory.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#39

Post by SirHound »

Apocryphon wrote: post #36
SirHound wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you are arguing in bad faith (or ignorance). British immigration policy is British immigration policy because as per European law it has mechanisms to prevent benefit immigration that is isn’t exercising https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:... The fact is successive governments have rightly identified that both skilled and cheap labour from immigration is keeping our economy afloat. Otherw…

Seems conceivable that post-Brexit Tory governments would not do a whit about immigration for the sake of access to labor.

They couldn’t! Basic demographics mean this kind of approach would, like it or not, end us.

Although given the global inverse correlation between financial prosperity and birth rates, we’ll be back on our feet within a generation!

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#40

Post by Apocryphon »

SirHound wrote: post #39
Apocryphon wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems conceivable that post-Brexit Tory governments would not do a whit about immigration for the sake of access to labor.

They couldn’t! Basic demographics mean this kind of approach would, like it or not, end us. Although given the global inverse correlation between financial prosperity and birth rates, we’ll be back on our feet within a generation!

I think you mean "shouldn't." Capital does all sorts of things that you might find self-destructive. Do you think they'll behave any differently when they're beholden only to Westminster instead of Brussels as well?

That inverse property doesn't seem to be holding up for Japan.

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