Help Wanted: America’s love affair with amateur advice • Hacker News Board

Re: Help Wanted: America’s love affair with amateur advice

#31

Post by nimbius » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:22 PM UTC

As an auto mechanic by trade, ive got a theory about this. People love amateur advice because they cant afford the shop rate.

In the US im guessing we like it because the cost in terms of healthcare fees and social stigma is likely a high enough bar to entry that people find amateur help more accessible. Mental health in the US has a sad stigma. men are supposed to be rocks of silence and discipline, women are supposed to be strong and independent, we really leave little room for variance.

as for "the shop rate" its exactly why my neighbor asks me about his car when Im picking mint from the herb garden and not while im swinging deadblow hammers in the shop. $70-$120 an hour really puts a damper on your ability to get help any other way. I guess psychiatrists charge way more, but if insurance never chips in, I guess chamomile tea and dear dotty columns are the next best thing. But these arent scientific and they certainly dont help.

Just like pouring gallons of engine repair snakeoil in the crank case. Its something, its just not going to fix the problem. It will let you ignore it long enough until it becomes a blown head. or i guess in the case of mental health, a meltdown in a crowded office or something that comes with an assault charge and a rap sheet.

Re: Help Wanted: America’s love affair with amateur advice

#32

Post by slededit » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:34 PM UTC

jestgrade wrote: post #27

DoreenMichele wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't walked anything back. An awful lot of people are woefully misreading what I said in a much more negative light than I intended, then acting like I changed my story when I try to communicate about the issue. It's probably best for me to walk away at this point. Most of the remarks here do not strike me as good faith engagement.

[flagged]

Its a malicious rhetorical tool to use attempts at clarification as evidence of retreat. That's what politicians do. People here are not professional communicators, you can't expect them to say things perfectly the first time.

Re: Help Wanted: America’s love affair with amateur advice

#33

Post by jestgrade » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:41 PM UTC

slededit wrote: post #32

jestgrade wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Its a malicious rhetorical tool to use attempts at clarification as evidence of retreat. That's what politicians do. People here are not professional communicators, you can't expect them to say things perfectly the first time.

I think you meant to reply to criley above; this has nothing to do with what I said. I did not accuse anyone of "retreat"; I replied to a complaint about being misunderstood.

Re: Help Wanted: America’s love affair with amateur advice

#34

Post by jacobolus » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:54 PM UTC

askafriend wrote: post #28

DoreenMichele wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conflict of interest means you can never be sure why they recommended X, not that X was recommended with malice aforethought. That's precisely why it's such a thorny issue. People with malice aforethought are relatively easy to root out compared to people who mean well, but can't quite get it right for reasons no one can quite put their finger on.

How far do you take this kind of logic though? Do you never go to a dentist because you can never be sure they're fixing your teeth? You don't know if they're superficially treating your teeth just enough to warrant another visit instead of "fixing" them once and for all. Do you never hire an engineer onto your team at work? You can never be sure if they're putting bugs into their code on purpose for job security. I…

> Do you never go to a dentist because you can never be sure they're fixing your teeth? You don't know if they're superficially treating your teeth just enough to warrant another visit instead of "fixing" them once and for all.

Shady dentists performing unnecessary procedures so they can rip off their patients is a rare but serious problem.

Do go to a dentist when you have a clear problem you know about, and do go to the dentist from time to time for routine checkups / cleanings, but be careful about choosing a dentist and skeptical when a new dentist suggests your apparently healthy teeth actually need extensive work.

Re: Help Wanted: America’s love affair with amateur advice

#35

Post by sheepmullet » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:55 PM UTC

Domenic_S wrote: post #17

DoreenMichele wrote: post #2

Q: What qualifies this group for the position of beacon to the masses? A: Not a blessed thing. If you pay a psychiatrist, you have to worry that they have a conflict of interest. If you really get well, you won't need them anymore. They have an inherent motive to help you only enough to take credit for things going better, not enough to set you free from needing their services. If you turn to family, coworkers, or fr…

If you pay a programmer, you have to worry that they have a conflict of interest. If they finish the job, you won't need them anymore.

> If you pay a programmer, you have to worry that they have a conflict of interest. If they finish the job, you won't need them anymore.

Yes - this is a real problem especially if you don’t have the expertise to know how long a task should take.

That’s where many agile practices like 2 week scrums came from.

Re: Help Wanted: America’s love affair with amateur advice

#36

Post by jjoonathan » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:58 PM UTC

criley2 wrote: post #14

DoreenMichele wrote: post #2

Q: What qualifies this group for the position of beacon to the masses? A: Not a blessed thing. If you pay a psychiatrist, you have to worry that they have a conflict of interest. If you really get well, you won't need them anymore. They have an inherent motive to help you only enough to take credit for things going better, not enough to set you free from needing their services. If you turn to family, coworkers, or fr…

A psychiatrist that behaves as you describe is literally engaging in malpractice. You are a perfect example of what the article describes: your rationalization process for mistrusting experts seems rational at first glance, but upon closer examination it falls apart as quite simply an irrational fear used to rationalize not trusting an expert. The thing about free advice online is that... you didn't go to school for…

> A psychiatrist that behaves as you describe is literally engaging in malpractice.

That's only a deterrent to the extent you can prove it, which is zero.

> frankly it's ludacris!

Nearly every professional I've ever been in a position to independently assess has "rounded in their own favor," often quite heavily, frequently egregiously, and always with a firm rationalization in hand. Psychiatry has especially blurry lines to round -- but you expect me to believe that psychiatrists buck this trend? Frankly, that's ludicrous.

Re: Help Wanted: America’s love affair with amateur advice

#37

Post by 80mph » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 11:00 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #7

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That line of thinking is so alien to me. Does it apply to any time you go looking for goods or services? Do you go online for advice in complying with tax codes because your accountant wants you to get audited and need their services, do you make all your own food because the restaurant chefs want you to leave hungry so you have to order another serving, do you avoid the doctor since if you get better you won't come…

Does it apply to any time you go looking for goods or services? No, of course not. I eat at restaurants all the time. People will be hungry again shortly, even if fed wonderfully well. There are other things to worry about more, like if they are meeting food safety codes, which some don't. I did therapy with a military chaplain. I had a really positive experience there. He wasn't being paid by me to deal with me. He…

>I did therapy with a military chaplain. I had a really positive experience there. He wasn't being paid by me to deal with me. He was on salary. If I got better, that had no bearing on how much he made.

Actually, military chaplains do have a conflict of interest. They have to be endorsed by a religious organization, and said endorsement must be maintained throughout the chaplain's military service and can be withdrawn at any time for religious or disciplinary reasons. If they're not consistent with the teachings of their denomination, they stand to lose their military benefits and a pension.

Re: Help Wanted: America’s love affair with amateur advice

#38

Post by sheepmullet » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 11:03 PM UTC

criley2 wrote: post #14

DoreenMichele wrote: post #2

Q: What qualifies this group for the position of beacon to the masses? A: Not a blessed thing. If you pay a psychiatrist, you have to worry that they have a conflict of interest. If you really get well, you won't need them anymore. They have an inherent motive to help you only enough to take credit for things going better, not enough to set you free from needing their services. If you turn to family, coworkers, or fr…

A psychiatrist that behaves as you describe is literally engaging in malpractice. You are a perfect example of what the article describes: your rationalization process for mistrusting experts seems rational at first glance, but upon closer examination it falls apart as quite simply an irrational fear used to rationalize not trusting an expert. The thing about free advice online is that... you didn't go to school for…

> but upon closer examination it falls apart as quite simply an irrational fear

Yet you didn’t actually explain where it falls apart.

Valid malpractice claims are reasonably common in other much more measurable types of medicine.

It’s often a good idea to get a second or third opinion when you see a normal doctor.

To be wary of a branch of medicine like psychiatry with its far fewer checks and balances seems prudent.

Re: Help Wanted: America’s love affair with amateur advice

#39

Post by matt4077 » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 11:07 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #21

criley2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if he is giving the standard advice everyone in the industry gives. There are lots of conditions where the standard expectation is that "people like you don't really get well" and "symptom management is the name of the game." It would be considered malpractice to even tell people with certain diagnoses that you will shoot for curing them. This is not a fair summary of your previous point. You previously implied t…

I haven't walked anything back. An awful lot of people are woefully misreading what I said in a much more negative light than I intended, then acting like I changed my story when I try to communicate about the issue. It's probably best for me to walk away at this point. Most of the remarks here do not strike me as good faith engagement.

Part of the problem is that nowadays, people don't even recognise their accusations as such, but consider them benign, universally-understood downsides.

"Professionals tend to act based on financial motives" is among these. You seem to think it's just human nature, and don't even expect anything different. Yet ask any psychologist, and they'll react as the would to an accusation of murder.

That's because in their job, intentional deviations from the standard-of-care can quite easily turn into murder (or manslaughter/negligent homicide to be more precise).

Very similar: accusations against journalists that they are acting on behalf of some publication-wide agenda, take money from the subjects they cover, or write/don't write certain articles with an eye towards the sector's financial future ("The Times studiously avoids mentioning adblockers")

Re: Help Wanted: America’s love affair with amateur advice

#40

Post by matt4077 » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 11:08 PM UTC

sheepmullet wrote: post #38

criley2 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A psychiatrist that behaves as you describe is literally engaging in malpractice. You are a perfect example of what the article describes: your rationalization process for mistrusting experts seems rational at first glance, but upon closer examination it falls apart as quite simply an irrational fear used to rationalize not trusting an expert. The thing about free advice online is that... you didn't go to school for…

> but upon closer examination it falls apart as quite simply an irrational fear Yet you didn’t actually explain where it falls apart. Valid malpractice claims are reasonably common in other much more measurable types of medicine. It’s often a good idea to get a second or third opinion when you see a normal doctor. To be wary of a branch of medicine like psychiatry with its far fewer checks and balances seems prudent.

Malpractice is mostly about errors of negligence. The accusation here was about intentional behaviour, which would actually be criminal.