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SQLite Code of Conduct

sqlite.org

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Re: SQLite Code of Conduct

#31

Post by danielvf »

julian-klode wrote: post #26
crispyambulance wrote: post #22

Of course it is satirical but I think people forget that the CoC's that been gaining traction lately are themselves a response to a real problem. Yes, some CoC's may be fodder for satire and criticism because they cross the line when it comes to being excessively dogmatic. However, these things exist because online communities have been beset by hordes of assholes for a very long time. Many people feel excluded or ar…

The SQLite folks are saying that code of conducts are irrelevant. Hence, they are saying that the problems solved by CoCs do not exists, or are not problems. This is a disgusting move and we need to make sure to react appropriately by not using sqlite and fossil and other software these people created.

There seems to be a logical flaw in your argument. There's an old saying: "Something must be done about this problem. My plan is something. Therefore it must be done!"

People may disagree on solutions while agreeing on problems, and disagreement with one solution out of many does not mean ignoring a problem.

Re: SQLite Code of Conduct

#33

Post by danielvf »

cm2187 wrote: post #24
jxcl wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the whole point of good satire that it's not immediately evident whether it's a joke or not? Regardless, I don't see how this satire could be considered dangerous.

> Regardless, I don't see how this satire could be considered dangerous. Watch the twitter mob forming outside the window!

You can watch the mob forming in realtime. https://twitter.com/search?q=sqlite&src=typd

> "I hope there are discussions at REDACTED today about whether featuring SQLite on their front page is consistent with their values."

> "The message is clear: if you're concerned about diversity, decency, and inclusiveness, stay well away from the SQLite project."

> "I wonder if SQLite Consortium member organizations @mozilla, NDS association, @BentleySystems, @expensify, @business were consulted on this move."

> "This is the as*le: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._Richard_Hipp … (thanks @weigandtLabs for finding that out). He _is_ the main SQLite dev. And that's the community he's building. So SQLite is now dead -- or, at least, it should be."

Re: SQLite Code of Conduct

#34

Post by klohto »

crispyambulance wrote: post #22

Of course it is satirical but I think people forget that the CoC's that been gaining traction lately are themselves a response to a real problem. Yes, some CoC's may be fodder for satire and criticism because they cross the line when it comes to being excessively dogmatic. However, these things exist because online communities have been beset by hordes of assholes for a very long time. Many people feel excluded or ar…

What problem? We didn't need CoC for 20 years, why do we need it now?

Re: SQLite Code of Conduct

#35

Post by crispyambulance »

pgeorgi wrote: post #30
julian-klode wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SQLite folks are saying that code of conducts are irrelevant. Hence, they are saying that the problems solved by CoCs do not exists, or are not problems. This is a disgusting move and we need to make sure to react appropriately by not using sqlite and fossil and other software these people created.

> The SQLite folks are saying that code of conducts are irrelevant. Did they? It's a Code of Conduct for communal matters that was written some 1500 years ago. Given that the Benedictine order still exists, it may well be practiced to this day (not sure if they updated it. I wouldn't see a reason.) Given that there's no larger community around sqlite in the GitHub sense (they usually don't even take patches), and htt…

OK, but for whatever reason the powers that be at sqlite sees a need to lampoon codes of conduct even though it doesn't apply to them.

I don't see what they're getting out such an act. If CoC's don't apply to them, then may be they should shut-up about CoC's and focus more other things, like sqlite. Or, speak up about the CoC's in communities in which CoC's actually exist.

Re: SQLite Code of Conduct

#36

Post by zzzcpan »

crispyambulance wrote: post #35
pgeorgi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The SQLite folks are saying that code of conducts are irrelevant. Did they? It's a Code of Conduct for communal matters that was written some 1500 years ago. Given that the Benedictine order still exists, it may well be practiced to this day (not sure if they updated it. I wouldn't see a reason.) Given that there's no larger community around sqlite in the GitHub sense (they usually don't even take patches), and htt…

OK, but for whatever reason the powers that be at sqlite sees a need to lampoon codes of conduct even though it doesn't apply to them. I don't see what they're getting out such an act. If CoC's don't apply to them, then may be they should shut-up about CoC's and focus more other things, like sqlite. Or, speak up about the CoC's in communities in which CoC's actually exist.

They are developers and participate in various communities affected by CoCs. It's not up to you to decide whether they should or shouldn't speak up about CoCs.

Re: SQLite Code of Conduct

#37

Post by keldaris »

julian-klode wrote: post #27
keldaris wrote: post #12

This is a lovely piece of satire given the prevailing obsession with silly CoCs all around.

CoCs are not silly, they solve very important and real problems.

CoCs on their own solve exactly nothing, they're just a tool that's supposed to enable project leadership to solve certain issues more effectively. Whether they actually serve that function is an open question since the practice is still fairly new. I haven't seen any meaningful evidence one way or the other (feel free to provide some).

While I'm sympathetic to the argument that sufficiently large projects should, on average, benefit from some degree of formalization of behavioral norms (whether you call it a code of conduct or something else), the recent trend of insisting (often abusively) that every open source project, however small, should adopt this practice is silly, annoying and has obviously caused a backlash in some parts of the open source community, hence this thread.

Re: SQLite Code of Conduct

#38

Post by pgeorgi »

crispyambulance wrote: post #35
pgeorgi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The SQLite folks are saying that code of conducts are irrelevant. Did they? It's a Code of Conduct for communal matters that was written some 1500 years ago. Given that the Benedictine order still exists, it may well be practiced to this day (not sure if they updated it. I wouldn't see a reason.) Given that there's no larger community around sqlite in the GitHub sense (they usually don't even take patches), and htt…

OK, but for whatever reason the powers that be at sqlite sees a need to lampoon codes of conduct even though it doesn't apply to them. I don't see what they're getting out such an act. If CoC's don't apply to them, then may be they should shut-up about CoC's and focus more other things, like sqlite. Or, speak up about the CoC's in communities in which CoC's actually exist.

> If CoC's don't apply to them

From the CoC page: "Having been encouraged by clients to adopt a written code of conduct"

Under my interpretation (not sure if it's the right one - it might as well be satire): "OK, here's a written CoC we abide by", meeting customer demand.

It's interesting that this thing existed for months and only now somebody noticed and created outrage.

Re: SQLite Code of Conduct

#39

Post by keldaris »

julian-klode wrote: post #26
crispyambulance wrote: post #22

Of course it is satirical but I think people forget that the CoC's that been gaining traction lately are themselves a response to a real problem. Yes, some CoC's may be fodder for satire and criticism because they cross the line when it comes to being excessively dogmatic. However, these things exist because online communities have been beset by hordes of assholes for a very long time. Many people feel excluded or ar…

The SQLite folks are saying that code of conducts are irrelevant. Hence, they are saying that the problems solved by CoCs do not exists, or are not problems. This is a disgusting move and we need to make sure to react appropriately by not using sqlite and fossil and other software these people created.

Saying that code of conducts are irrelevant does not imply that the problems supposedly solved by CoCs do not exist or are not problems. This is a point of basic logic. If you feel the need to misstate your case to this extent, it does not help your credibility.

Re: SQLite Code of Conduct

#40

Post by pgeorgi »

keldaris wrote: post #37
julian-klode wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CoCs are not silly, they solve very important and real problems.

CoCs on their own solve exactly nothing, they're just a tool that's supposed to enable project leadership to solve certain issues more effectively. Whether they actually serve that function is an open question since the practice is still fairly new. I haven't seen any meaningful evidence one way or the other (feel free to provide some). While I'm sympathetic to the argument that sufficiently large projects should, on…

> since the practice is still fairly new

"in tech". The CoC we're discussing here exists - as CoC - for Millenia.

An even older example would be the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath, which might have been more appropriate as an example of a "code of work conduct", but "I swear by Apollo the Healer, by Asclepius, by Hygieia, by Panacea, and by all the gods and goddesses" might rub some people the wrong way, including, in this case, sqlite's author.

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