FT8 – Tipping Point for Ham Radio? • Hacker News Board

Re: FT8 – Tipping Point for Ham Radio?

#31

Post by silman » Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 5:19 PM UTC

mmaunder wrote: post #28

silman wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who went from nothing -> Amateur Extra when i was 23 (25 now) from a random spurt of inspiration to learn ham radio and then promptly did nothing with the license i agree with this. I don't know exactly what i was expecting from getting the license but i will say that i didn't expect it to basically just be dominated by old conservative men who don't appreciate younger folk stepping in on their air space.…

Guys, no one is forcing you to listen to that stuff. Get off the voice bands, get on digital and you'll have a blast. Here's a fun talk at Defcon from Balint Seeber, a ham who focuses on security, to get you in the right headspace. I attended this and the group of 6 of us that hung out afterwards with Balint was some of the most impressive people I've met at Defcon. One had built a bug sniffer. Another was intercepti…

So what lower-cost radio do you recommend to get started on non-voice bands? I see the bitX40 people made a new model called the µBITX. What bands and protocols will that open me up to? I also looked at the RTL-SDR but thats receive only and i'd like to do some transmitting and explore my options. Basically just looking for a cheap option that lets me explore the most bands/protocols.

Re: FT8 – Tipping Point for Ham Radio?

#32

Post by mcbits » Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 5:23 PM UTC

esaym wrote: post #9

I'm trying hard to figure out what these "modes" are. Even after watching a video[0] I'm still not sure what is really going on. Is the whole point just to acknowledge 'pings' from other transmitters? Seems kind of pointless but I assume I'm missing something.... [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzXkIvoqvAY

I've made exactly one contact with FT8 using a low power radio and crappy antenna. I played the generated tones from tinny computer speakers to the mic, just messing around. Someone responded! (Probably semi-automatically...)

I thought it was pretty cool that it worked at all, but it doesn't seem like a very exciting mode to pass the time other than maybe to fill the log book and impress all my hypothetical friends.

The resiliency might be useful for emergency communications in some way, but it would have to be a peculiar type of emergency.

Re: FT8 – Tipping Point for Ham Radio?

#33

Post by howard941 » Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 5:24 PM UTC

platz wrote: post #25

So is FT8 is to ham radio as WebAssembly is to the internet?

From the balance of comments on this article you'd think FT8 was saving ham radio from itself. /death of ham radio predicted, film at 11

Re: FT8 – Tipping Point for Ham Radio?

#34

Post by HowTheSausageIs » Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 5:26 PM UTC

The FT8 developers have an amazingly strong knowledge of information theory as well as the many practical considerations of communication over an RF channel. Feature addition and bug fixing are slow because the developers don't believe in abstraction, and instead code as if the only option were a direct carryover of FORTRAN 77 conventions into C++. There's no longer a public repo but https://sourceforge.net/p/wsjt/wsjtx/ci/master/tree/mainwind... is representative of current code.

Re: FT8 – Tipping Point for Ham Radio?

#35

Post by topspin » Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 5:31 PM UTC

jjacobs0 wrote: post #13

"Zero sunspots but working DX on FT8!" I don't get it. I thought sunspots killed radio communications?

> I thought sunspots killed radio communications?

They can. Sunspots can also greatly enhance radio communications. Outside of amateur radio this effect is rarely appreciated; ordinary radio service users usually only become aware of sunspots when they interfere with communication. Amateurs, however, operate on many different frequencies, and they achieve communication under unusual, rapidly changing conditions. They often use solar activity to their advantage.

The story mentions "10m DX." This is ham speak for the 10 meter or 30 megahertz band (the high end of the 3-30 MHz "high frequency" or HF band, which is extremely low frequency by today's standards) long range (DX; multiple "hop", frequently international) communication. Using traditional modes the 10 meter band is presently "closed" to long distance communication, meaning you get nothing but static when you listen and no one detects your transmissions. The lack of solar activity is the reason the band is closed. When solar activity is high (lots of sunspots) one can use a low cost transceiver, a small antenna and an easily obtained license and reach people thousands of miles away.

Re: FT8 – Tipping Point for Ham Radio?

#36

Post by MisterTea » Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 5:32 PM UTC

Interesting. But as a non-ham I find the article chock full of ham jargon which leaves me completely lost.

> What happened to take an esoteric mode designed for multi-hop E skip on VHF and overnight turn it into a worldwide phenomenon across all bands from 2200m through 70cm? In other words, what makes FT8 a killer app?

Indeed. What does make FT8 the killer app? Anyone care to break this down in layman's terms that an EE with basic radio knowledge can understand?

Re: FT8 – Tipping Point for Ham Radio?

#37

Post by geofft » Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 5:41 PM UTC

kawfey wrote: post #17

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a variation of FT8, JS8CALL, that allows for text chat and data transmission. http://js8call.com Seems to me that, especially for EmComm, this could be a total game changer. Field radio with small antennas, low power requirements, and nearly worldwide reach.

I feel like in an emergency situation, voice would still be the preferred mode since ARES and other HF radio organizations are dispatched to fill in coverage gaps that would have been there otherwise. You also need a working computer with the latest software, a digital interface, and have practiced digital mode operating skills.

In an emergency situation I'll probably have my cell phone, too. What I'd love to have is an app (or packaged web app using WebAudio) that encodes/decodes PSK31 so I can plug in an audio cable from my iPhone to my Baofeng and start typing.

Re: FT8 – Tipping Point for Ham Radio?

#38

Post by mediocrejoker » Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 5:47 PM UTC

AWildC182 wrote: post #7

tibbon wrote: post #5

I've got my technicians license, and have no idea what he's talking about. Can someone explain? Even the AARL page on this that's the top google hit doesn't jargon check itself at all: http://www.arrl.org/news/ft8-mode-is-latest-bright-shiny-obj...

What would you like explained? I know the tech doesn't cover a lot regarding HF (which this is largely for). Sunspots? Propagation? Digital modes?

What is FT8 and why is it controversial with hams?

Re: FT8 – Tipping Point for Ham Radio?

#39

Post by resters » Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

AWildC182 wrote: post #4

This has one unspoken bonus feature: Not having to talk to an octogenarian about politics. I know it sounds silly, but I suspect this is one of the huge features driving it's success. Amateur radio is plagued by bad actors and grumpy old men, along with the general age imbalance that makes it fairly unpleasant for young people and extremely unpleasant for anyone who sounds vaguely feminine...

I feel the need to clarify AWildC182's comment because I think it reflects poorly on amateur radio as an inviting place for younger people.

There are some "scenes" in amateur radio that are dominated by older, somewhat conservative leaning discourse. Some VHF and UHF repeaters are like this, and there are many groups of people who chat with the same group every night on 80m SSB.

Some newcomers start out on VHF/UHF repeaters and if they live near one that is like this, it may turn them off to the entire hobby even though it's just a small part of it.

I recommend CW and FT8 as less conversational ways of getting on the air. If you are in the mood for a conversation, you can do so on CW, and there are conversational digital modes.

I personally like contests and experiencing propagation and band openings, but don't really need to have a long chat.

So my recommendation for a new licensee would be to jump right into MSK144 and then determine what to do next :)

Re: FT8 – Tipping Point for Ham Radio?

#40

Post by resters » Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

silman wrote: post #24

AWildC182 wrote: post #4

This has one unspoken bonus feature: Not having to talk to an octogenarian about politics. I know it sounds silly, but I suspect this is one of the huge features driving it's success. Amateur radio is plagued by bad actors and grumpy old men, along with the general age imbalance that makes it fairly unpleasant for young people and extremely unpleasant for anyone who sounds vaguely feminine...

As someone who went from nothing -> Amateur Extra when i was 23 (25 now) from a random spurt of inspiration to learn ham radio and then promptly did nothing with the license i agree with this. I don't know exactly what i was expecting from getting the license but i will say that i didn't expect it to basically just be dominated by old conservative men who don't appreciate younger folk stepping in on their air space.…

> I have yet to actually speak to anyone because i don't feel like there is anything i would want to say.

That's true for many people. You don't need to use it to make a statement or to express your individuality, you can just participate in contests, enjoy propagation, etc.