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OpenBSD 6.4 released

openbsd.org

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Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#31

Post by jchw »

mruts wrote: post #13

Linux is a depressing mess after you've used OpenBSD. Such a high quality system, with stellar documentation. It's unfortunate that Linux has become so popular even though the BSD's are so much better. A bad historical accident. Damn you Linus...

I mean, there's no denying that the Linux ecosystem is a mess from a cohesion perspective, but I think it's a bit unfair to come to this conclusion without taking more into account. As far as server operating systems go, nothing is more battletested than Linux today, and nothing really has a more complete offering.

OpenBSD is great, of course, but my favorite thing about open source is the cross collaboration. Rather than dump literal decades of constant refinement to Linux and it's ecosystem because OpenBSD is much more elegant seems unwise. There are things Linux and the general Linux stacks could learn from OpenBSD (and should.)

I don't think the world would be better if OpenBSD were in the position Linux is in today (though I have a hunch the security story around FOSS stacks would be better.) I think there is a lot of good that Linux can do with its more fast-and-loose organizational structure.

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#33

Post by II2II »

mruts wrote: post #13

Linux is a depressing mess after you've used OpenBSD. Such a high quality system, with stellar documentation. It's unfortunate that Linux has become so popular even though the BSD's are so much better. A bad historical accident. Damn you Linus...

If you are talking about Linux in terms of distributions, some of that mess carries over to OpenBSD as soon as you start installing packages since a lot software depends upon that messy infrastructure.

Of course, a base OpenBSD installation is wonderful to work with and the damage can be minimized through the careful selection of packages.

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#34

Post by DCKing »

mruts wrote: post #13

Linux is a depressing mess after you've used OpenBSD. Such a high quality system, with stellar documentation. It's unfortunate that Linux has become so popular even though the BSD's are so much better. A bad historical accident. Damn you Linus...

One thing Linux has going for it is a bunch of popular features for developers' desktops:

* Electron apps - VSCode, Atom, Slack, almost every universal desktop app that gets released today. Individual ports of apps to FreeBSD exist, but there is no way to automatically build Electron apps for any of the BSDs.

* Good desktop virtualization - KVM, VirtualBox (okay FreeBSD has these in theory), VMware

* First-class Docker and desktop container support (FreeBSD jails exist but there is no container ecosystem like there is on Linux)

You can still run Firefox, mail clients, vim/emacs, Unix utilities and LibreOffice on any of the BSDs just fine. They're lacking other niceties however. And that's a bad thing in my opinion - although it's mostly not the fault of any of these projects. Some people think BSD is better for lacking those options, but I can't live without them for one.

It's unfortunate: Linux and the BSDs used to have more or less the same application support. Anything Unix-y ran on anything Unix-y. There was nothing stopping you from having an OpenBSD desktop almost identical in function as, say, a Xubuntu desktop - one that looked much cleaner on the inside. But once broader commercial interest started happening for Linux, the BSDs were mostly left by the wayside in application support.

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#35

Post by na85 »

enriquto wrote: post #11
ttul wrote: post #4

I am so tempted to install this after a 15 year break...

You can try it right now inside virtualbox, and 20 minutes later you realize that it is has all you need. After a few days, you'll notice that you spend most of your time inside the virtual machine, and then it makes sense to turn your setting upside down and work directly on the saner system.

OpenBSD just isn't performant enough for me. I can't honestly say that it has what I need when I get multi-second system freezes when opening or closing tabs in chromium (though this was under 6.0)

Battery life under OpenBSD is atrocious compared even to Linux.

It's a great server OS but it's not ready for laptop daily driver use unless your laptop just sits plugged in all day.

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#36

Post by a012 »

DCKing wrote: post #34
mruts wrote: post #13

Linux is a depressing mess after you've used OpenBSD. Such a high quality system, with stellar documentation. It's unfortunate that Linux has become so popular even though the BSD's are so much better. A bad historical accident. Damn you Linus...

One thing Linux has going for it is a bunch of popular features for developers' desktops: * Electron apps - VSCode, Atom, Slack, almost every universal desktop app that gets released today. Individual ports of apps to FreeBSD exist, but there is no way to automatically build Electron apps for any of the BSDs. * Good desktop virtualization - KVM, VirtualBox (okay FreeBSD has these in theory), VMware * First-class Dock…

Docker trends do favour to Linux, while the virtualization in FreeBSD IMO is still a hard wall for many people. Jails, ezjail, bhyve, chyve, etc. Requires amount of works to get it just right. While docker runs a container is straight forward. I don't mean which is better but definitely *BSD is less attractive than mainstream Linux.

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#38

Post by simias »

DCKing wrote: post #34
mruts wrote: post #13

Linux is a depressing mess after you've used OpenBSD. Such a high quality system, with stellar documentation. It's unfortunate that Linux has become so popular even though the BSD's are so much better. A bad historical accident. Damn you Linus...

One thing Linux has going for it is a bunch of popular features for developers' desktops: * Electron apps - VSCode, Atom, Slack, almost every universal desktop app that gets released today. Individual ports of apps to FreeBSD exist, but there is no way to automatically build Electron apps for any of the BSDs. * Good desktop virtualization - KVM, VirtualBox (okay FreeBSD has these in theory), VMware * First-class Dock…

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. All the software you mention is relatively recent (with the exception of VMware arguably) and Linux was ahead of the BSDs in adoption long before these applications were created.

Now what exactly created this divide to begin with is a matter of debate but it took place mostly in the 90's and the very early 00's. By the mid 2000's it was clear that BSDs would have a really hard time ever catching up with Linux, especially for non-server applications.

Paradoxically it might be partially why BSDs are so clean and tidy: fewer features, fewer contributors and of course they're making a complete operating system instead of just a kernel or just a distribution.

FreeBSD remains my favourite OS for servers, it's rock solid and a joy to administrate. Unfortunately for the desktop I've given up almost a decade ago, driver support is just too lackluster, especially (as you mention) for proprietary software that can't be easily ported.

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#39

Post by tsmarsh »

na85 wrote: post #35
enriquto wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can try it right now inside virtualbox, and 20 minutes later you realize that it is has all you need. After a few days, you'll notice that you spend most of your time inside the virtual machine, and then it makes sense to turn your setting upside down and work directly on the saner system.

OpenBSD just isn't performant enough for me. I can't honestly say that it has what I need when I get multi-second system freezes when opening or closing tabs in chromium (though this was under 6.0) Battery life under OpenBSD is atrocious compared even to Linux. It's a great server OS but it's not ready for laptop daily driver use unless your laptop just sits plugged in all day.

I really enjoy have openbsd on a server that I ssh into.

OS X and Windows are better GUI, OpenBSD is a better place for a lot of my work... basically anything that I’d use emacs for.

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#40

Post by mishac »

aquabeagle wrote: post #27
RandomTisk wrote: post #17

I run OpenBSD as my border firewall which it handles very well. One thing I wish that OpenBSD devs would change in their philosophy is the --help messages. Many commands simply offer a list of switches, as if that's somehow helpful. Sometimes you need the detail in a man page, but a lot of times you don't and it would save so much time and energy to have a succinct list in the --help message itself. # syspatch --help…

That's a GNUism, so you won't find it in BSD tools.

It's a good GNUism though, that I also wish the BSDs supported. No-one's saying that the BSDs should start supporting GNU style --long-options or switch to info instead of man, but friendlier help messages are always a nice thing.
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