Ladino, not to be confused with Ladin (also called "Ladino" in Italian), another romance language with few speakers from southern Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladin_language
Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish
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Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish
#32In Spanish, "ladino" is an adjective, and its main meaning is "shrewd" or "sly". It's what you would call Aladdin's Jafar( http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Jafar ). I hope it's just a coincidence, but I would not be surprised to find some racism in the etymology of the word. My language has several of those.
Except that prior to 1492, there was no language known as "ladino." It was simply Spanish, and the Jews who were exiled continued to preserve the language. Does the community auto-identify with the term "ladino"? Or was this term imposed after the exile?
More accurate to say that at the time, there was no language known as "Spanish" - there were speakers of Latin dialects (including what became Spanish and Portuguese and Galician and Catalan &c.), speakers of Arabic, and speakers of Basque.
Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish
#33This is slightly tagential, but bare with me... Nationalism and nation states. We live in a nationalist world. All places and all people are politically divided into nations. Nationalism is so dominant that we barely think of it as a thing. Anyway.. ladino & it's speakers are descendants of refugees from the spanish reconquista and inquisition period. It's generally seen though a christian/muslim lens, but this isn't…
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Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish
#34This is slightly tagential, but bare with me... Nationalism and nation states. We live in a nationalist world. All places and all people are politically divided into nations. Nationalism is so dominant that we barely think of it as a thing. Anyway.. ladino & it's speakers are descendants of refugees from the spanish reconquista and inquisition period. It's generally seen though a christian/muslim lens, but this isn't…
The late 1400s was very far away from Nationalism. You are thinking of the early 1800s. The first truly Nationalist state was France under Napolean or some would say the USA, but even earlier USA barely held itself together for the first 20 years.
Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Usted(es) is a more modern invention. Ladino does have vos, which survives in some varieties, e.g. Argentine.
yep - they also use vosotros for the plural formal, which might throw off someone just reading the text lacking that knowledge. yeísmo is also present, which is at present just about absent in Spain, except perhaps from the older speakers in the south.
Yeismo is very much alive in Argentina and Uruguay
Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Does the orthographic X become [x] or is it [ʃ]? eg. How would they say Quixote, with a "sh" sound? Interesting, I once came across the original spelling of Mexico: Mejico. In Brazil today they call it "Meshy-ko." Similarly in English, many of features that the British like to look down their noses as "Americanisms" were invented in Britain.
Yeah, this is a puzzling thing to me. The Spaniards came in and they wrote down a bunch of native Mexican place names with X being a sh sound, as it is today in other Iberian languages like Portuguese. Then that sound morphed in Spain into the kh sound, like in loch. In IPA-speak that is /ʃ/ to /x/. But they brought that sound change to the Americas too. So, both sides of the ocean see that change... But not Ladino e…
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Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish
#37If you want to hear how it sounds, Spanish National Radio (RNE) has a podcast in judeoespañol:
Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish
#38> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want) Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense. > I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do) and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than modern Spanish. I heard sounds lik…
> Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp French also uses “manquer”, and there are traces in spanish (such as a manco being a person that lacks an arm).
In romanian, a more isolated romance language, "mancare" means food and "a manca" is to eat.
Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish
#39This is slightly tagential, but bare with me... Nationalism and nation states. We live in a nationalist world. All places and all people are politically divided into nations. Nationalism is so dominant that we barely think of it as a thing. Anyway.. ladino & it's speakers are descendants of refugees from the spanish reconquista and inquisition period. It's generally seen though a christian/muslim lens, but this isn't…
> When emperise gives way to nations, minorities suffer.
The very creation of those empires was a violent subjugation of nations through carnage and pillaging. But who cares about their suffering that lasted for centuries as long as we have muh multi-ethnic caliphate, right?
Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish
#40This is slightly tagential, but bare with me... Nationalism and nation states. We live in a nationalist world. All places and all people are politically divided into nations. Nationalism is so dominant that we barely think of it as a thing. Anyway.. ladino & it's speakers are descendants of refugees from the spanish reconquista and inquisition period. It's generally seen though a christian/muslim lens, but this isn't…
The late 1400s was very far away from Nationalism. You are thinking of the early 1800s. The first truly Nationalist state was France under Napolean or some would say the USA, but even earlier USA barely held itself together for the first 20 years.
No, he's onto something. Don't let popular understanding and terminology blind you, what we're looking at here is the shift from war as the primary driver of polity creation to what we now call popular sovereignty. This shift would have taken hundreds of years and Christianity would have been a huge driver.
Agrarian empires like the Roman one were absolutely massive, juggernauts that just couldn't be stopped. Yet the Middle Ages were a period of small, warring nations, with comparatively much smaller empires arising. Warfare slowly civilized to the point where the common people barely felt the sting.
The peace of Westphalia took place in 1648, creating the notion of an international system law that was bigger than the individual agreements penned between states.
The Napoleonic France of the 1800s represented a sharp break from this world, almost a repeat of the old juggernauts.
What caused empire to stop working and the polities to get ever smaller? I think the answer belongs in what your parent was getting at, people coalesced into ethnic communities and just wouldn't participate in the building of empire anymore. So existing empires broke up and nation-states arose.