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IPCC: Climate scientists consider ‘life changing’ report

bbc.com

31–40 of 80 posts

Re: IPCC: Climate scientists consider ‘life changing’ report

#31
post #11

I guess governments will just skip the prevention step when they realize their own inaction made that impossible and just try to find ways to adapt to the inevitable changes instead. There's pretty much no way, purely for political/human reasons, that keeping the temperatures below 2 or even 3 degrees seems feasible at that point, so humanity will just have to deal with it and adapt over the next century. Shame about…

>so humanity will just have to deal with it and adapt over the next century

So far, how much did you lose by fighting for the climate, to get the system to change? Your time? Your wealth? Your reputation? Your comfort? How much?

I can't believe we're becoming fatalist without a fight. I'd rather join the rebellion than watch the world burn and adapt to hell.

Re: IPCC: Climate scientists consider ‘life changing’ report

#32

It always seems odd to me that people still plan their lives as though the world fifty years from now will be basically the same as now. I hope they're right, to be honest. But we're talking 3+c warming (5.4F) and that could be horrific. I guess it's nice if you want a winery in Norway but that's small comfort.

I don‘t like alarmism. Most of it is simply proven wrong in the long term. People are good at adapting most of the time. For example, I got myself air conditioning in a country famous for skiing. People in poor countries will probably suffer much more, but they need to tackle their population growth issues anyway. In essence, there are life-changing problems affecting us every day (who would have thought 50 years ago…

"who would have thought 50 years ago that we‘d need barriers againt car attacks at all major public events"

To be honest, we still don't need them. Obviously it's horrible but considering that we accept ~1.25 million people a year killed on the roads (~25k in the EU, 30-40k in the US, or about one 9-eleven a month) it's probably not the best ROI. Though to be honest I think we should put massive barriers between cars and people anywhere we can, or just remove the cars wherever possible, but I'm odd that way.

Like I said I hope I'm wrong, but right now it looks like all the earlier estimates were too conservative and to think that we can cause major disruptions to the world's food supply, as well as making some places simply uninhabitable without air conditioning, strikes me as naive. To think that you can do it while still planning a 401(k) and buying holiday houses on the beach a cheap flight away for when you retire seems especially naive (though I worry we'll still have the cheap flights, which would be a bummer unless they're electric).

As far as population - it's true that we could stand to have far fewer people around, but even if your motivations are purely selfish, making hundreds of millions of people hungry, thirsty, and desperate doesn't sound like a good idea. And of course, most poor people emit basically nothing, so reducing the population of people living on under 5 dollars a day won't do much for the planet as a whole.

Re: IPCC: Climate scientists consider ‘life changing’ report

#33
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you doing? If I must change, why not you? The people telling me to change must also change. People think this is an adolescent response but really, it boils down to us merely sneering at each other and not doing anything. edit: totally predicted...people are reacting with a simple question about actual change by downvoting my comment into Oblivion. You need no better explanation for our fate.

edit: totally predicted... Well maybe because of your general tone and because you didn't seem to react to the OP directly. You see, with a question like "If I must change, why not you?" you imply the OP said you must change while he/she doesn't. But the OP came nowhere near mentioning such thing. On the contrary, OP used we .

OP states: We can and must do better. And quickly.

why is it out of bounds to ask them what they are doing if the need is apparently so dire?

or does "we" mean what it always means in these discussions....someone else?

will even one person here commit to not flying for a year? the poor don't fly because they can't afford it.

Re: IPCC: Climate scientists consider ‘life changing’ report

#34

It always seems odd to me that people still plan their lives as though the world fifty years from now will be basically the same as now. I hope they're right, to be honest. But we're talking 3+c warming (5.4F) and that could be horrific. I guess it's nice if you want a winery in Norway but that's small comfort.

I don‘t like alarmism. Most of it is simply proven wrong in the long term. People are good at adapting most of the time. For example, I got myself air conditioning in a country famous for skiing. People in poor countries will probably suffer much more, but they need to tackle their population growth issues anyway. In essence, there are life-changing problems affecting us every day (who would have thought 50 years ago…

I think you're falling for a fallacy of scale.

The perceived need to add car barriers to public events ks nothing in comparison with having to air-condition homes and public spaces around the globe. Also, remember nature?

Re: IPCC: Climate scientists consider ‘life changing’ report

#35

A key factor contributing to climate change is the number of people weighted by energy consumption. Should governments in rich countries encourage people to have fewer kids or otherwise constrain their life choices in various other ways? This goes against liberal values. What do most progressives think?

> A key factor contributing to climate change is the number of people weighted by energy consumption.

It is sometimes framed as I=PAT equation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_%3D_PAT

It's probably important not to take that equation too seriously, as it's roughly an accounting identity based on structural assumptions. If you don't like it, pick any other factors to factorise one side of I=I. But it does provide a helpful perspective: in terms of what you stated, we'd also need to multiply by a coefficient that describes carbon emissions in terms of per-capita energy consumption.

> Should governments in rich countries encourage people to have fewer kids or otherwise constrain their life choices in various other ways? This goes against liberal values. What do most progressives think?

I'm not sure if I am a progressive. My short answer is "yes, governments should constrain life choices to help force a controlled crash ahead of continued overshoot then a forced hard collapse". In the future I suspect we'll end up in scenarios where either we have the luxury of choosing one or more ecologically incompatible liberal values to break, or reality will go on ahead and break one or more of our incompatible values for us.

A liberal perspective of free individual choice in the short term that causes uncontrolled growth and consumption at the population level is not logically compatible with a desire to avoid wide-scale suffering due to famine, resource war, etc in the future (assuming that the latter concern is a value we wish to maintain).

Specifically regarding population, the carbon emissions of a US family* + descendants versus a Bangladeshi family + descendants, projected forward 100 years, estimates that the US family & descendants generates about 40x as much carbon emissions. (picking those two countries as extremes of (high per-capita pollution, low population growth) versus (low per-capita pollution, high population growth)). The US family & their descendants still incurs a higher carbon emission footprint even up to time horizons of 900 years. This is even with a US birth rate of 1.9, which isn't sufficient to maintain population over the longer run.

From an overall population level, arguably "we" the human endeavour should seek to minimise the number of people with affluent high-pollution lifestyles.

On the other hand, of course there is no "we" that includes all of us. Perhaps myself and my neighbours can figure out how to push more of the costs of global warming onto you and your neighbours while keeping a disproportionate share of the benefits, or vice versa. Or maybe together we can collaborate to share the benefits of the current cheap energy jackpot and push more of the costs on to our actual/hypothetical grandchildren.

* i dont mean to pick on the US, I'm australian, we're about the same or worse in terms of per-capita impact of ruining your children's atmosphere and climate. you should impose trade sanctions on my country to encourage my government to stop pushing for new coal mines. my federal government can't seem to think of anything cleverer to do than digging up all of australia's coal and selling it before it loses all market value.

Re: IPCC: Climate scientists consider ‘life changing’ report

#36

Yet I doubt even these scientists have engaged in radically rewriting their lifestyles to reduce climate impact. If they had, they would have video conferenced instead of flying to Korea. Basically no one in the West other than the very poor live a low impact life. In the US in particular, we are really only very good at telling others how they should change. Case in point was the "March For Science" that took place…

And yet, aren't emissions in the US down to 90s levels? Less pollution is always good, but let's not pretend like nothing has happened.

Re: IPCC: Climate scientists consider ‘life changing’ report

#37

It always seems odd to me that people still plan their lives as though the world fifty years from now will be basically the same as now. I hope they're right, to be honest. But we're talking 3+c warming (5.4F) and that could be horrific. I guess it's nice if you want a winery in Norway but that's small comfort.

I don‘t like alarmism. Most of it is simply proven wrong in the long term. People are good at adapting most of the time. For example, I got myself air conditioning in a country famous for skiing. People in poor countries will probably suffer much more, but they need to tackle their population growth issues anyway. In essence, there are life-changing problems affecting us every day (who would have thought 50 years ago…

> For example, I got myself air conditioning in a country famous for skiing.

AC units are massive drivers of climate change. Honestly, this is a vile and selfish attitude.

Re: IPCC: Climate scientists consider ‘life changing’ report

#38
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

edit: totally predicted... Well maybe because of your general tone and because you didn't seem to react to the OP directly. You see, with a question like "If I must change, why not you?" you imply the OP said you must change while he/she doesn't. But the OP came nowhere near mentioning such thing. On the contrary, OP used we .

OP states: We can and must do better. And quickly. why is it out of bounds to ask them what they are doing if the need is apparently so dire? or does "we" mean what it always means in these discussions....someone else? will even one person here commit to not flying for a year? the poor don't fly because they can't afford it.

Because it isn't adding to the conversation? I could ask what you're doing, but instead i'm reading and wondering what more i can do personally.

Edit: Hell, ill even provide what i am doing. Not only am i trying to reduce my electricity usage in my house (which was really bugger all to begin with), I have convinced the owner of my restaurant, and have been implementing for months, a system where we source our produce locally as much as possible. (it is costing is approx 5-8% at the moment - as of last months check - but advertising this fact has been a ton more profitable than not putting the effort in).

So that's just a part of what I'm doing. I'm willing to do more.

Re: IPCC: Climate scientists consider ‘life changing’ report

#39

Nothing is more important than getting our reaction to climate change right. It’s so frustrating that so few genuinely helpful companies are emerging out of our ecosystem. We can and must do better. And quickly.

Even in the worst case scenario, global warming will not annihilate the human species. AI, nanotechnology, weaponized bioweapons, nuclear war, asteroid impacts, or alien contact could all potentially wipe out humanity.

If nine billion people have to compete for enough food to feed one billion people, it won't be surprising if some nukes fly.

Re: IPCC: Climate scientists consider ‘life changing’ report

#40
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don‘t like alarmism. Most of it is simply proven wrong in the long term. People are good at adapting most of the time. For example, I got myself air conditioning in a country famous for skiing. People in poor countries will probably suffer much more, but they need to tackle their population growth issues anyway. In essence, there are life-changing problems affecting us every day (who would have thought 50 years ago…

I think alarmism is a retrospective assessment. We can probably say a lot of our reporting on current Western terrorism is alarmist - numbers wise, it didn't compare to road deaths or regular shootings. But global warming will be/is unprecedented and will affect the whole world. Immediate action is unlikely to reverse this process either. Your comment about population growth issues is disgusting.

> We can probably say a lot of our reporting on current Western terrorism is alarmist - numbers wise, it didn't compare to road deaths or regular shootings

Because we have adapted. But how many are affected by the terror it involves? Terrorism = terrorizing people, not just murdering them.

> But global warming will be/is unprecedented

Erm, no.

https://www.climate.gov/news-features/climate-qa/whats-hotte...

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