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E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time?

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Re: E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time?

#31
post #2

> It turns out that staring at back-lit computer monitors for 40+ hours a week might not be the best thing for you. Source? Light is still hitting your retinas, whether it comes from reflection or from a backlight. I really enjoy E-Ink displays, but not because of perceived health benefits from reflected light. I enjoy how readable they are under sunlight, how they consume zero energy to show a static image, and how…

The mammalian visual system has been the predominant model system used in developmental neurobiology research for the past fiftyish years. It's generally known at this point that visual circuits pattern themselves according to input, and that visual systems fed from a constrained input domain lose the ability to meaningfully represent real-world input. We also know that computer displays show a very restricted subset of perceptual info, and also don't relate to other sensory modalities (like proprioception of head/eye movements to look at peripheral objects) which are important for maintaining an integrated environmental map. So, it's more reasonable to assume that looking at monitors is harmful than helpful, especially at a young age (or following a stroke, taking certain HDAC6 inhibitors or other things that increase "neural plasticity"). The common knowledge of developmental neurobiology has advanced to the point where the claim "closer to natural ISN'T better for normal development" is one which requires proof.

Now, does this have any meaningful bearing on e-ink displays? The contrast ratio is closer to stuff you get in the natural world, but apart from that it's still a monitor.

Re: E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time?

#32
post #6

It's always going to be dodgy until the graphical OS you're running is aware of what eInk is, and adapts the UI toolkit and general rendering to play to eInk's strengths.

Maybe just setting Windows into one of it’s High Contrast Settings would help[0]. I’m sure MacOS offers a similar feature.

[0]http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=windows+10+high+contrast

Re: E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time?

#33
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can turn my monitor down so it's dimmer than a sheet of white paper on my desk. If I aim a desk lamp directly at the paper I can make it brighter than the monitor on full brightness. There's no standard brightness for monitor or paper.

But can you actually READ your monitor when it’s dimmer than a sheet of paper in ambient light?

why does it have to be dimmer than ambient?

Re: E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time?

#34
post #2

> It turns out that staring at back-lit computer monitors for 40+ hours a week might not be the best thing for you. Source? Light is still hitting your retinas, whether it comes from reflection or from a backlight. I really enjoy E-Ink displays, but not because of perceived health benefits from reflected light. I enjoy how readable they are under sunlight, how they consume zero energy to show a static image, and how…

The mammalian visual system has been the predominant model system used in developmental neurobiology research for the past fiftyish years. It's generally known at this point that visual circuits pattern themselves according to input, and that visual systems fed from a constrained input domain lose the ability to meaningfully represent real-world input. We also know that computer displays show a very restricted subset…

Everything you said sounds really impressive, but

>visual systems fed from a constrained input domain lose the ability to meaningfully represent real-world input.

Seems to imply that looking at a computer monitor for too much of your life means you won't be able to see the real world, or not "see it right", whatever that means.

The only example of that I've seen is some people (kids, presumably) commenting on the Nvidia RTX demo videos that the non-raytraced versions, which lack real world lighting dynamics, look "better" than the raytraced ones, which were, to me at least, obviously closer to physically realistic, representative images. Now, whether they were saying that because their eyes have literally programmed themselves for cheaply rendered video game worlds, or because they didn't want to face spending the asking price of the RTX hardware, is up to the reader.

Re: E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time?

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see anything related to reflectivity vs. backlight illumination. Most of the discussion is around the wavelength of light (blue) and its effects.

does light have any other intrinsic properties besides spectrum/wavelengths and intensity (EDIT: properties that vary based on the light source alone)? It doesn't matter if it came from a backlight or reflection, the electromagnetic waves are still electromagnetic waves. If the color spectrum is unpleasant, it's possible to use Night Shift or other features to shift the spectrum. If the intensity is unpleasant, just…

The problem is LCDs have much worse objective performance as the backlight diminishes. E-Ink has tragically bad contrast of 15:1, but it maintains that contrast ratio in low lighting conditions. LCD panels rely on high brightness for their contrast. At very low brightness, even the best LCD display has poor contrast.

OLED displays have a different problem; they have so much noise at low brightness that the image falls apart. Still, I think a monochrome OLED display is what the person who wrote this article actually wants. It would have better performance in every respect to E-Ink, and it doesn't sound like their application requires E-Ink's low power.

Re: E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time?

#36
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

does light have any other intrinsic properties besides spectrum/wavelengths and intensity (EDIT: properties that vary based on the light source alone)? It doesn't matter if it came from a backlight or reflection, the electromagnetic waves are still electromagnetic waves. If the color spectrum is unpleasant, it's possible to use Night Shift or other features to shift the spectrum. If the intensity is unpleasant, just…

The problem is LCDs have much worse objective performance as the backlight diminishes. E-Ink has tragically bad contrast of 15:1, but it maintains that contrast ratio in low lighting conditions. LCD panels rely on high brightness for their contrast. At very low brightness, even the best LCD display has poor contrast. OLED displays have a different problem; they have so much noise at low brightness that the image fall…

I have used both LCD and OLED smartphone displays at incredibly low brightness in pitch black rooms for a long time, and I have to completely disagree.

On the other hand, E-Ink is amazing in sunlight, where smartphone displays can't get sufficiently bright.

Re: E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time?

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see anything related to reflectivity vs. backlight illumination. Most of the discussion is around the wavelength of light (blue) and its effects.

does light have any other intrinsic properties besides spectrum/wavelengths and intensity (EDIT: properties that vary based on the light source alone)? It doesn't matter if it came from a backlight or reflection, the electromagnetic waves are still electromagnetic waves. If the color spectrum is unpleasant, it's possible to use Night Shift or other features to shift the spectrum. If the intensity is unpleasant, just…

This is actually a reply to @Romed:

OLED displays have a different problem; they have so much noise at low brightness that the image falls apart. Still, I think a monochrome OLED display is what the person who wrote this article actually wants. It would have better performance in every respect to E-Ink, and it doesn't sound like their application requires E-Ink's low power.

My understanding too is that OLEDs can have "true black" pixels that emit no light at all. For "dark mode" style screens, this is a huge benefit, because the majority of the screen may simply be turned off. Conventional LCD screens still send current to each pixel, but the "black" is simply tuned to a dark frequency, rather than being altogether off.

Re: E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time?

#38
post #2

> It turns out that staring at back-lit computer monitors for 40+ hours a week might not be the best thing for you. Source? Light is still hitting your retinas, whether it comes from reflection or from a backlight. I really enjoy E-Ink displays, but not because of perceived health benefits from reflected light. I enjoy how readable they are under sunlight, how they consume zero energy to show a static image, and how…

The mammalian visual system has been the predominant model system used in developmental neurobiology research for the past fiftyish years. It's generally known at this point that visual circuits pattern themselves according to input, and that visual systems fed from a constrained input domain lose the ability to meaningfully represent real-world input. We also know that computer displays show a very restricted subset…

[deleted]

Re: E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time?

#40
post #3

I'd pay a lot of money for a decent E Ink monitor. I don't need color or high refresh rate. I do need it to "just work", be reliable and relatively big. The second step would be software support so that I could leave images on the screen when the computer is off. Stuff mentioned in the article is interesting, but it sounds like the quality is quite bad for all 3.

There's been recent mention of the... Onyx Boox Max2, as Google refreshes my memory. It can be used as a display via a simple HDMI connection. I read a few articles, and I'd like to try one, but I haven't convinced myself to put down $800 . Here's a googled link that my browser history says I've visited before: https://goodereader.com/blog/electronic-readers/onyx-boox-ma... P.S. As I asked at the time, does anyone kn…

I searched for a teardown, but only found one of the Dasung Paperlike Pro https://kevzettler.com/2018/02/11/dasung-paperlike-pro-teard... , but which helpfully links to a source for the panel.

The biggest display they have seems to be a 42" monochrome display for $2000 https://shopkits.eink.com/product-category/e-ink-display-mod...

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