Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite' • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#31

Post by rooam-dev » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:10 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #21

stemc43 wrote: post #10

If not for this guy - we wouldn't have Linux. I'd much rather work with honest person that can tell me how he really feels then nice spoken liars.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

Sometimes "constructive" requires more effort, which for an engineer could mean "overhead". Especially if communication is text based (email, chat, etc.), it's more difficult to express your emotions.

My imho of course.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#32

Post by NikolaNovak » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:10 PM UTC

steve_taylor wrote: post #24

nailer wrote: post #15

I remember looking at Linux's angrier style maybe 15 years ago (I would have been 22) and not being bothered. Someone made a stupid mistake and was getting a bollocking. Looking at it as a 37 year old last week, I'm surprised a grown man needed to be so aggressive. You can destroy the opinion or the behavior using reason without the aggression, which distracts. I like that Linux is changing this, though I do have con…

> I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes That's the CoC's entire purpose. Its author (the same person behind the post-meritocracy manifesto) has said that yes, the CoC is a political document.

What is a "post-meritocracy manifesto"?

It sounds... opposite from everything I thought we've all been fighting for in the tech community, but I could be wrong? :-S

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#33

Post by yashap » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:12 PM UTC

His quotes about political correctness are pretty interesting. Basically that neo-Nazis have tried to brand themselves as “just practical people against excessive political correctness,” but really that’s just a facade covering their true hate and racism. But now, if you’re ACTUALLY just someone who’s against excessive political correctness, you risk being associated with neo-Nazis.

I’d consider myself pretty left-wing - for compassion towards others, very strongly against racism, sexism and homophobia, very pro immigration and multiculturalism. Still, I do often find current levels of political correctness a bit much - like if someone uses he/she, they’re almost never intentionally being anti-trans, so who cares? Or simply many on the left flying into outrage too easily. But it’s hard to express these views now, because neo-Nazis have been putting up this facade of “just against political correctness,” when in fact there’s real hate behind it. And now many on the left take any deviance from political correctness to indicate a neo-Nazi. Not a great situation, and certainly not one that encourages people to have productive conversations/disagreements.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#34

Post by steve_taylor » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:14 PM UTC

NikolaNovak wrote: post #32

steve_taylor wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes That's the CoC's entire purpose. Its author (the same person behind the post-meritocracy manifesto) has said that yes, the CoC is a political document.

What is a "post-meritocracy manifesto"? It sounds ... opposite from everything I thought we've all been fighting for in the tech community, but I could be wrong? :-S

The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto:

https://postmeritocracy.org/

Author and signatory #1 is the same as the Contributor Covenant, which is the CoC adopted by the Linux Kernel.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#35

Post by temporary904 » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:14 PM UTC

mosselman wrote: post #16

stemc43 wrote: post #10

If not for this guy - we wouldn't have Linux. I'd much rather work with honest person that can tell me how he really feels then nice spoken liars.

So you are either a truthful asshole or a kind liar? There are no people who are kind and honest?

In the era of victimhood and "microaggressions" honesty does hurt people's feelings apparently.

But we all know all that has nothing to do with honesty, it's about political control, in and outside a informal community. Open source is defacto an easy target since most projects don't have real organizations. The people who pull these stunts in the open source world have no power of persuasion in private businesses, they can't impose their dubious code of conducts,contributor covenants and other "post-meritocracy" manifesto there.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#36

Post by zellyn » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:15 PM UTC

steve_taylor wrote: post #24

nailer wrote: post #15

I remember looking at Linux's angrier style maybe 15 years ago (I would have been 22) and not being bothered. Someone made a stupid mistake and was getting a bollocking. Looking at it as a 37 year old last week, I'm surprised a grown man needed to be so aggressive. You can destroy the opinion or the behavior using reason without the aggression, which distracts. I like that Linux is changing this, though I do have con…

> I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes That's the CoC's entire purpose. Its author (the same person behind the post-meritocracy manifesto) has said that yes, the CoC is a political document.

Of course a Code of Conduct is a political document.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#37

Post by zellyn » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:17 PM UTC

DC-3 wrote: post #29

HugoDaniel wrote: post #11

Adding to the drama, I wonder what Stallman has to say about all this...

He wrote a very brief email. https://i.redd.it/1lbta0g910n11.png

That email is just so Stallman. You have to enjoy his single-mindedness.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#38

Post by pytyper2 » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:17 PM UTC

There are a lot of us like Linus. The easy solution is not emotional counseling, it's an assistant/editor who can tone down his public comments. This is not a new problem.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#39

Post by yourbandsucks » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:18 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #21

stemc43 wrote: post #10

If not for this guy - we wouldn't have Linux. I'd much rather work with honest person that can tell me how he really feels then nice spoken liars.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

Linus wrote emails all day every day for 15 years and like once a year he'd go off on somebody.

It's not a false dichotomy, because nobody's perfect. You're gonna have flaws, they're gonna come out on bad days, and at that point you've got a few options for what kinds of flaws you prefer.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#40

Post by azag0 » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:19 PM UTC

asdkhadsj wrote: post #8

rectang wrote: post #4

It's interesting that Torvalds describes himself as "not a people person", when he's a gifted communicator who has been tremendously successful at managing the community around Linux over many years. His current refinements are making a great thing even better.

This is more of a question than a critique on your comment, but: Couldn't he still not be a people person _(perhaps a poor communicator)_, and still manage a successful community? I say that because historically it's been a bit of a meme around how forceful and abrasive Linus is. Yet, he's often right, or at the very least very informed. He's a very smart man who has done very smart things. I'm not sure if the Linux…

If the email to BBC was written by Torvalds, then he is a great communicator. Very few people can write with such clarity.