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Bitcoin Miners Flock to New York’s Remote Corners, but Get Chilly Reception

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Re: Bitcoin Miners Flock to New York’s Remote Corners, but Get Chilly Reception

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could, but no one ever seems to do a good job of it.

There are a lot of things no one ever does a good job of, but that doesn't make them not useful, nor does it mean that they wouldn't by more useful if they did a better-but-still-not-good job of it. Bitcoin is at least doing a less-awful job than any previous attempt managed.

>> You could argue...

> You could, but no one ever seems to do a good job of [making such an argument].

Re: Bitcoin Miners Flock to New York’s Remote Corners, but Get Chilly Reception

#32
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is certainly true that the social utility of a company is not necessarily proportional to the number of employees, but it's not necessarily proportional to the profits either. A glass repair company that goes around breaking windows could make money without creating net utility. That is what many people see bitcoin as. Now, you can debate and argue about specifics vis-a-vis cryptocurrency, but there's a larger iss…

> Why assume that making money means you are benefiting society, in general? Because when you make money, someone is paying you for a product or service. When someone chooses to pay you for your product or service, they are expressing a preference for that product or service over the money, and vice versa (you express a preference for the money over the product/service). Which means, that when money is exchanged for…

I have a bridge to sell you.

Re: Bitcoin Miners Flock to New York’s Remote Corners, but Get Chilly Reception

#33
post #20

Is there any work being done to make Bitcoin not consume all that energy? It's hard to support when it's so wasteful of a critical resource. Are they trying to go proof of stake?

> Are they trying to go proof of stake?

At this point, that would be impossible. Making even minor changes to the Bitcoin protocol effectively requires the consent of miners, as they're responsible for minting blocks. There's no way that entrenched mining interests would agree to a protocol change that cut them out of the picture.

Re: Bitcoin Miners Flock to New York’s Remote Corners, but Get Chilly Reception

#34
post #20

Is there any work being done to make Bitcoin not consume all that energy? It's hard to support when it's so wasteful of a critical resource. Are they trying to go proof of stake?

I'm not familiar with "proof of stake", how does that make mining less wasteful in terms of resources?

Its doesn't have any mining at all. You put your coins in a smart contract that allows you to get randomly selected to create blocks from time to time, if you do something wrong then some of your coins are taken from you, if you do everything right you get a portion of the fees and/or a bit of inflation. There are lots of slightly different variants of it though

Re: Bitcoin Miners Flock to New York’s Remote Corners, but Get Chilly Reception

#35
post #4

>Mr. Recny asked why an enterprise that required only a few people to run it should be able to drive up the operating costs of a company that employed about 500. Why should an enterprise that requires only about 500 people to run it be able to drive up the operating costs of a company that employed about 2,000? and other such logic from "the only justified subsidy is my subsidy" camp. >The concerns are part of a broa…

Bitcoin on the macro consumes a lot of electricity which produces carbon.

On the micro level the issue often stems from municipal power contracts. Some towns pre purchse their expected power needs collectively to lower cumulative costs. Bitcoin miners can upset this balance and drive up costs per kWh across the whole town, making them unpopular locally.

Re: Bitcoin Miners Flock to New York’s Remote Corners, but Get Chilly Reception

#36
post #20

Is there any work being done to make Bitcoin not consume all that energy? It's hard to support when it's so wasteful of a critical resource. Are they trying to go proof of stake?

Proof of work cannot be made to consume less power. Every single increase in hash rate efficiency just results in the same kWh being used to make more hashes followed by an increase in block difficulty. This is literally a security feature of the network, since it’s designed to prevent 51% attacks.

It might be technically possible to change the bitcoin protocol, but at this point the politics are insurmountable.

Re: Bitcoin Miners Flock to New York’s Remote Corners, but Get Chilly Reception

#37
post #7
post #4

>Mr. Recny asked why an enterprise that required only a few people to run it should be able to drive up the operating costs of a company that employed about 500. Why should an enterprise that requires only about 500 people to run it be able to drive up the operating costs of a company that employed about 2,000? and other such logic from "the only justified subsidy is my subsidy" camp. >The concerns are part of a broa…

The real irony here is that the Bitcoin/Ethereum miners are setting up hardware which runs software designed to maximize inefficiency for the sake of maintaining a system designed for money laundering and tax evasion. Rather than use their equipment for work that's useful to humanity like Folding@Home or BOINC these mining operations are running what amounts to a foundry of space heaters trying to compute a lottery n…

You realize your objections can also be said of the Finance industry as a whole.

Re: Bitcoin Miners Flock to New York’s Remote Corners, but Get Chilly Reception

#38
post #4

>Mr. Recny asked why an enterprise that required only a few people to run it should be able to drive up the operating costs of a company that employed about 500. Why should an enterprise that requires only about 500 people to run it be able to drive up the operating costs of a company that employed about 2,000? and other such logic from "the only justified subsidy is my subsidy" camp. >The concerns are part of a broa…

It is certainly true that the social utility of a company is not necessarily proportional to the number of employees, but it's not necessarily proportional to the profits either. A glass repair company that goes around breaking windows could make money without creating net utility. That is what many people see bitcoin as. Now, you can debate and argue about specifics vis-a-vis cryptocurrency, but there's a larger iss…

... so is the Finance sector as a whole.

Re: Bitcoin Miners Flock to New York’s Remote Corners, but Get Chilly Reception

#39
I fully understand this reaction. Crypo is delivering on none of it's promises and leaving an ugly mark on the production side. Transactions are way too slow for retail, decentralization is a joke because the largest mining pools are manipulating the supply with less transparency than national currencies, the value is too volatile to entice people to use it for anything other than speculation, and it is literally the most environmentally destructive modern technology at the moment. If miners moved into my town you bet my ass I would be at town hall telling them to fuck off.

Re: Bitcoin Miners Flock to New York’s Remote Corners, but Get Chilly Reception

#40
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is certainly true that the social utility of a company is not necessarily proportional to the number of employees, but it's not necessarily proportional to the profits either. A glass repair company that goes around breaking windows could make money without creating net utility. That is what many people see bitcoin as. Now, you can debate and argue about specifics vis-a-vis cryptocurrency, but there's a larger iss…

I don't understand how you can compare violation of property rights (breaking windows) to a completely voluntary system such as Bitcoin, the private production and use of which violates no property rights.

I don't think that the harm of breaking windows is solely due to violation of private property rights. Maybe the windows are on a publicly owned building. Or, even if they are private property, there is harm done to the public as a consequence of the damage. People will take steps to avoid such damage. And conversely, maybe the mining of Bitcoin harms public interests too. I think it's easy to just assume away the issues that go beyond private interests if you identify morality with sacrosanct property rights.
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