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On banning racial terms in programming

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Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#31

Post by voidr »

methodover wrote: post #7

This is a fucking awful blog post. Just because you aren’t offended by it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be changed. That’s an awful argument. It’s trivial to avoid these racially charged words when programming. So just do it. Like, if a subordinate at work came to me and was like, “I wish we could do X, it would make me feel better about working here,” and X is some trivial thing, it kind of doesn’t matter what it is. It…

> This principle isn’t hard

Rewriting all those computer science books, dictionaries, retraining all those professors, rewriting all the software that uses these term.

> and pays huge dividends in life

Citation needed.

> listen to people, and when they tell you something bothers them and it costs you little to fix, fix it, even if you don’t understand it.

It costs you your freedom to say anything, which if you read some history books, you'll see that many people had to die for.

Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#32

Post by delian66 »

camgunz wrote: post #26
delian66 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where does this "cultural" change end? Do you want to have control over not only the used terms, but even the thought constructs that they represent? Most peoples throughout history have been enslaved at one time or another. Most peoples have waged war on one another, most of them brutal and prolonged. A small percentage do criminal acts even in peace time. Do you want to ban/replace terms like war, battle, kill a…

> So where does this "cultural" change end? That's a fair question, and the answer is that cultural change is never "done", nor does it move in a single direction. I would imagine in 20 years our culture will be significantly different than it is now. I hope it's more tolerant, kind, and understanding, but there's no guarantee. > Do you want to have control over not only the used terms, but even the thought construct…

You are free to fork the projects, that use "insensitive" terms, run sed on them, then test the result, and send pull requests. Other people then are free to reject your changes if they want, and you will be wrong to attack them for their choice.

Programming (and thinking in general) is hard enough. Have some compassion for your fellow programmers, and please do not make it even harder, by insisting on clouding our thoughts with bullshit political correctness ideas and demands that have nothing to do with programming and everything to do with empty virtue signaling.

Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#33

Post by camgunz »

delian66 wrote: post #32
camgunz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So where does this "cultural" change end? That's a fair question, and the answer is that cultural change is never "done", nor does it move in a single direction. I would imagine in 20 years our culture will be significantly different than it is now. I hope it's more tolerant, kind, and understanding, but there's no guarantee. > Do you want to have control over not only the used terms, but even the thought construct…

You are free to fork the projects, that use "insensitive" terms, run sed on them, then test the result, and send pull requests. Other people then are free to reject your changes if they want, and you will be wrong to attack them for their choice. Programming (and thinking in general) is hard enough. Have some compassion for your fellow programmers, and please do not make it even harder, by insisting on clouding our t…

> bullshit political correctness ideas

> empty virtue signaling

I wish you would be a little more open minded, and I'm sorry that since you're not it seems we can't have a productive discussion.

> You are free to fork the projects, that use "insensitive" terms, run sed on them, then test the result, and send pull requests. Other people then are free to reject your changes if they want, and you will be wrong to attack them for their choice.

This is more than a little disingenuous. Would this really work for something like Redis, or is it that you know it wouldn't and you're advancing it as a non-solution because you think this is all, in your words, "bullshit political correctness"?

Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#34

Post by delian66 »

camgunz wrote: post #33
delian66 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are free to fork the projects, that use "insensitive" terms, run sed on them, then test the result, and send pull requests. Other people then are free to reject your changes if they want, and you will be wrong to attack them for their choice. Programming (and thinking in general) is hard enough. Have some compassion for your fellow programmers, and please do not make it even harder, by insisting on clouding our t…

> bullshit political correctness ideas > empty virtue signaling I wish you would be a little more open minded, and I'm sorry that since you're not it seems we can't have a productive discussion. > You are free to fork the projects, that use "insensitive" terms, run sed on them, then test the result, and send pull requests. Other people then are free to reject your changes if they want, and you will be wrong to attack…

>>"Essentially it's a couple of sed commands"

Lol... these words were originally written by you, don't you remember ;-) ???

I only suggested, that YOU actually do the work for what you want, and then freely offer the result to be merged in the upstream project(s)... Be the change that you want to see in the world and all that jazz...

I do think, that it is highly likely that your changes would not be merged for most projects, but of course I may be wrong. If so, more power to you ... just please do not expect others to do what you want, just because of your feelings and sensibilities. You can even pay someone qualified to do the changes, if you can not for one reason or another.

Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#35

Post by camgunz »

delian66 wrote: post #34
camgunz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bullshit political correctness ideas > empty virtue signaling I wish you would be a little more open minded, and I'm sorry that since you're not it seems we can't have a productive discussion. > You are free to fork the projects, that use "insensitive" terms, run sed on them, then test the result, and send pull requests. Other people then are free to reject your changes if they want, and you will be wrong to attack…

>>"Essentially it's a couple of sed commands" Lol... these words were originally written by you, don't you remember ;-) ??? I only suggested, that YOU actually do the work for what you want, and then freely offer the result to be merged in the upstream project(s)... Be the change that you want to see in the world and all that jazz... I do think, that it is highly likely that your changes would not be merged for most…

Woof, sorry I misread a little; I thought you were advocating a full fork.

I know sometimes people file issues about language, but I've seen PRs for it too. I think this taps a little into the general sentiment that open source maintainers are doing a lot of work mostly for free and are therefore pretty (maybe overly) sensitive to people asking for changes, but that's kind of a separate issue. What I take issue with is:

> Other people then are free to reject your changes if they want, and you will be wrong to attack them for their choice.

First, I don't know if I'd use the word "attack" here, but that aside, I think leaving language like "master/slave" is wrong, even if a project chooses to. Just like I think leaving a buffer overflow in would be wrong.

I guess, thinking through it, you're taking issue with someone else setting a maintainer's priorities. I don't think filing issues is really doing that -- there are lots of issues on lots of projects, and if anything most people like it when they're filed because it helps them to improve their software.

And if you file an issue and no one touches it, even after months, it's natural to wonder if the team cares about the same things you care about. At some point, maybe after a couple pings or whatever, it's reasonable to conclude that they don't.

Is saying so an attack? I would argue that happens all the time with technical issues and our community doesn't find it exceptional. But when it comes to this language stuff, it seems like it's treated like a special case.

> just please do not expect others to do what you want, just because of your feelings and sensibilities

The issue of colonial language in software is about much more than "feelings and sensibilities". I'd encourage you to read up on how the language we use shapes the way we think about basically everything and thus how we behave. It's far too important to be dismissed.

Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#36

Post by delian66 »

camgunz wrote: post #35
delian66 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>"Essentially it's a couple of sed commands" Lol... these words were originally written by you, don't you remember ;-) ??? I only suggested, that YOU actually do the work for what you want, and then freely offer the result to be merged in the upstream project(s)... Be the change that you want to see in the world and all that jazz... I do think, that it is highly likely that your changes would not be merged for most…

Woof, sorry I misread a little; I thought you were advocating a full fork. I know sometimes people file issues about language, but I've seen PRs for it too. I think this taps a little into the general sentiment that open source maintainers are doing a lot of work mostly for free and are therefore pretty (maybe overly) sensitive to people asking for changes, but that's kind of a separate issue. What I take issue with…

>> I guess, thinking through it, you're taking issue with someone else setting a maintainer's priorities.

You understood that very well. If you want a project to fulfill your desires, either you do the work and preferably submit it upstream, or you sponsor the change. Filing an issue for the purpose of changing the language/concepts used in a project, to me reeks of very toxic entitlement.

As you said yourself, "the language we use shapes the way we think about basically everything and thus how we behave" (otherwise known as 'Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis'). Thus demands for change of language are in fact demands for control/power over others, the clarity of their thoughts, their actions, ultimately their realities, do you agree with that ???

I have no issue, if you propose better terms, which more accurately describe the concepts which we refer to, when we use terms as "master/slave" relationship, but so far you have not done so. If you do and promote the new terms, then may be gradually people will use them instead.

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