Alternatives:
(-) Dom / Sub
(-) Boss / Tasklet
(-) Pat / Pleb (short for Patrician / Plebeian)
(-) Planter / Seed
(-) Client / Contractor
(-) Cat / Human
(-) Doctor / Patient
(-) Dog / Sheep
(-) Knight / Page
(-) Planet / Moon
Python: Avoid master/slave terms
31–40 of 44 posts
Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms
#32[deleted]
Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think what you're missing here is that it was first in the computer sense used in a time when all this discussion hadn't happen yet. So one the one hand, you're correct, it has this meaning. But there was a time where "negro" was a word with a neutral (to a certain kind of people) meaning - just look up any newspaper from a hundred years ago. So even if we're not having the discussion if the term is appropriate or…
And who knows what innocuous word today will be deemed "problematic" by the social justice warriors tomorrow.
And who knows who will derogatorily and condescendingly be deemed a "social justice warrior" simply for trying to be a decent human and remove the world "slave" from a code base, on the off chance that some people might truly feel the pain of that word and its ugly history.
Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've never known anyone, minority or not, who got teary-eyed at the word "slave". Uncomfortableness with the basic terminology of slavery is a reflection of how people relate to their privilege, especially in an era where minority rights and minority power are at the forefront of the contemporary narrative. That isn't to say that there doesn't exist terminology that people should be mindful of. But most privileged, w…
"Socially just" alternatives that were used in this example, for other processes/programs that have to do entirely what the master process tells them to: 1. (pliant) children (they started with childs, let's just not think too much what this means about the author's intelligence) 2. workers That's just ... not offensive ? ahem > But context matters, Indeed. The context is that this is a socially acceptable way to den…
"they started with childs, let's just not think too much what this means about the author's intelligence"
Considering that he's not a native speaker, and child has an irregular plural form, I find your comment very insulting.
Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms
#35This is just stupid.
Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms
#36Slaves to speech suppression are masters of nothing - Eric Raymond http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=8114
Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms
#37A better read than what is found at github can be found here. https://bugs.python.org/issue34605
Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Although I can't completely agree with this While I read it as doubling down on bigotry. "Oh, you think I'm a racist? I'll show you what racism is really like." I find it hard to think that someone who isn't sexist would decide to become sexist out of spite over terminology. > We've been using the master/slave terminology for years, but it has nothing to do with actual slaves In technology, the term "master/slave"…
> I find it hard to think that someone who isn't sexist would decide to become sexist out of spite over terminology. It doesn't work exactly that way. It's more like some people start telling you to do things that seem absurd to you and imply you are doing something wrong whereas you had no bad intentions at all, and this causes a negative reaction. > If we use the modern view when we apply the metaphor then our mora…
Sometimes people tell me to do absurd things, not because it's absurd but because I don't understand that I'm doing the wrong thing.
I grew up thinking it's okay to wear outdoor shoes inside the house. Since then I've visited places doing that is not just impolite, but rude.
If I visit a Japanese restaurant and people start telling me to take my shoes off, and imply that it's wrong to wear shoes with zashiki style seating - even when I have no bad intentions - should I double-down and insist that I wear my shoes?
No, of course not. What would you do in that case?
> If we really follow this logic, we should ban all negative words
... No? I mean, the example I gave describes how the metaphor is almost completely inverted. That's not a negative, but a flipping of the meaning. I don't see how you concluded that as my logic.
> reconsider all metaphors
"Awe" used to mean something more like fear, and "awesome" meant "profoundly reverential" or "inspiring dread". Since the 1960s it has taken on a meaning more like "impressive, very good". (Quotes from etymonline.) When the Bible says something like "great and awesome God", it doesn't mean to read it the same way that Bill and Ted would use it.
Similarly, the Christmas song says to "don our gay apparel", which has a rather different meaning now than from when it was written.
In both cases, if you want to emphasize the original intent, then yes, I do suggest changing what words you use.
You'll note that neither case refers to a negative.
> We should never run any daemons
Unlike for master/slave, where the terminology comes from actual slavery, the term 'daemons' as used in computing does not come from the (Biblical) devil but from Greek mythology. That meaning has been used in English since the 1500s.
> this could upset adherents
You'll note that my argument isn't based on upsetting people. It's based on using a metaphor where the underlying understanding or interpretation has changed.
You comment 'your explanations of daemon etymology shouldn't matter then'.
There can certainly be an argument for using a different term even if there is no etymological descent. As Christopher Hitchens commented, after using the word "niggardly" - which has no etymological connection to the vile slur - "Nobody said anything, but I privately resolved -- having felt the word hanging in the air a bit -- to say "parsimonious" from then on."
However, very few are making it that argument about daemons, while the push for a change in the master/slave term is at least 20 years old, that I'm aware of. Since some people will object to anything, no matter what, the idea that there may be an objection doesn't sway me much.
> We shouldn't use the name Apache because of the sad history of American natives
I lived in New Mexico, and know that people from the Jicarilla Apache Nation and from the Mescalero Apache Tribe are not opposed to general use of term "Apache". (I verified just now that they use 'Apache' on their web site.) I think you are just making this up to make a point.
My argument, however, was not based on hypothetical situations that someone might be offended or that there might be negative interpretation.
If you are making it up, then I suggest that you should not use the suffering of American Natives to score an internet point.
> We shouldn't use terms such as "bug squashing" as they would imply animal cruelty.
I believe you are right. Also, "bug hunt." I have wondered why it always felt a bit odd to me. Along with that would be phrases like "ddt" as a name for a debugger. FWIW, I prefer "fixing bugs" rather than "killing bugs.
If there is a general cultural shift towards Jainism or some other belief which avoids the killing of bugs, then yes, we should reconsider that metaphor.
Don't you agree?
Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Although I can't completely agree with this While I read it as doubling down on bigotry. "Oh, you think I'm a racist? I'll show you what racism is really like." I find it hard to think that someone who isn't sexist would decide to become sexist out of spite over terminology. > We've been using the master/slave terminology for years, but it has nothing to do with actual slaves In technology, the term "master/slave"…
> I find it hard to think that someone who isn't sexist would decide to become sexist out of spite over terminology. It doesn't work exactly that way. It's more like some people start telling you to do things that seem absurd to you and imply you are doing something wrong whereas you had no bad intentions at all, and this causes a negative reaction. > If we use the modern view when we apply the metaphor then our mora…
I wish this was the top comment as it exactlty shows where all of this leads.
Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the underlying issue is not "that it goes too far". I don't believe anyone would oppose "going this far" in terms of reducing or abolishing actual slavery. I think what pisses people off is the utter frivolousness of it all. We all know that this is actually not doing anything about actual slavery. Replacing the word slave in Python or software in general will do actually nothing for actual slaves in the worl…
What it does it makes people mention this word less often. This is helping forget history. To have it repeated sooner - in some other form, using different words.
Why would one wants to forget history?