Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Secessio plebis

en.wikipedia.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 64 posts

Re: Secessio plebis

#31

Post by pjc50 »

Shaddox wrote: post #12

This is a very interesting social phenomena and I'm glad someone randomly linked to it since I never heard of it. I imagine the effectiveness of it stood in the fact that cities were self-sufficient. Since cities are no longer self-sufficient, a protest like this in the modern age would be meaningless. All the plebs of New York could leave the city and nothing would change, except that some patrician would get richer…

> cities were self-sufficient

Rome was highly dependent on grain imports.

> All the plebs of New York could leave the city and nothing would change

All of them?

Transport would break down fairly rapidly, since you'd have no public transport, no cabs, and no Uber drivers. Even if you could get into work there would be nobody to buy lunch from, and no childcare or schooling available to leave your kids with.

Most of the financial services companies in NY would be rendered inoperable.

Re: Secessio plebis

#32

Post by pjc50 »

atemerev wrote: post #21
Fnoord wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do sincerely hope, wish, and ultimately assume [1] that intelligent people (which is what I'd find fair to describe the people at Google who were supposed to work on "killer drones") do have high ethical standards. Of unintelligent people, its less surprising. I don't deny the existence of people who don't have the same ethical standard as me though. I never claimed or argued those people did or did not exist at Go…

Working on drones saves soldiers’ lives. Working for intelligence saves civilian lives by preventing terrorist plots. People who work for the military and the intelligence usually see themselves as paragons of high ethical standards.

> Working for intelligence saves civilian lives

Well, apart from all those airstrikes on schoolbuses.

Re: Secessio plebis

#33

Post by pjc50 »

arethuza wrote: post #27
Semiapies wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is exactly what happened to the plebians. They spent a couple centuries periodically having these revolts, and eventually they ended up "represented by" a few rich plebian families more tied to the patricians than to their supposed class, while pretty much nothing changed for the actual common people.

Sounds remarkably like the transition the UK's Labour party went through to become "New Labour".

The origin of Labour in the first place was "Fabian" (after Fabius the Delayer) socialism, in opposition to revolutionary socialism. Incremental change as opposed to kicking over the table.

Re: Secessio plebis

#34

Post by boomboomsubban »

pjc50 wrote: post #31
Shaddox wrote: post #12

This is a very interesting social phenomena and I'm glad someone randomly linked to it since I never heard of it. I imagine the effectiveness of it stood in the fact that cities were self-sufficient. Since cities are no longer self-sufficient, a protest like this in the modern age would be meaningless. All the plebs of New York could leave the city and nothing would change, except that some patrician would get richer…

> cities were self-sufficient Rome was highly dependent on grain imports. > All the plebs of New York could leave the city and nothing would change All of them? Transport would break down fairly rapidly, since you'd have no public transport, no cabs, and no Uber drivers. Even if you could get into work there would be nobody to buy lunch from, and no childcare or schooling available to leave your kids with. Most of th…

>Rome was highly dependent on grain imports.

I doubt this was true during the period described. Rome was little more than a city state in 492, and the first period of expansion was just starting in 450.

Re: Secessio plebis

#35

Post by arethuza »

pjc50 wrote: post #33
arethuza wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds remarkably like the transition the UK's Labour party went through to become "New Labour".

The origin of Labour in the first place was "Fabian" (after Fabius the Delayer) socialism, in opposition to revolutionary socialism. Incremental change as opposed to kicking over the table.

I was particularly thinking of the backgrounds and quality of people in Attlee's cabinet and compare that with the today's politicians.

Re: Secessio plebis

#36

Post by golergka »

pjc50 wrote: post #32
atemerev wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working on drones saves soldiers’ lives. Working for intelligence saves civilian lives by preventing terrorist plots. People who work for the military and the intelligence usually see themselves as paragons of high ethical standards.

> Working for intelligence saves civilian lives Well, apart from all those airstrikes on schoolbuses.

You have to look at the net result. If you're 50% certain that a schoolbus with 30 children has a leader of a terrorist cell that will on average perform one attack with ~100 casualties 1-2 times a year, and otherwise this terrorist is expected to have a life expectancy of 3-5 years, and without him this cell has a 60-70% probability of disintegrating, it's a very clear cut case.

I don't personally work in intelligence and I don't have first-person experience with this calculations. Of course, I expect that in reality they are much more complex and carry a lot more uncertainty - at least those I've read in detail certainly are, but I wouldn't be able to describe them in sufficient detail in a single HN comment. But refusing to make such a choice is still making a choice, and not always a best one.

Any conflict known to man have had loss of innocent lives by both sides. If you try to avoid it at all costs, all that you'll manage is loose, with more innocent lives destroyed, most of them on your side.

Re: Secessio plebis

#37

Post by Fnoord »

golergka wrote: post #19
Fnoord wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do sincerely hope, wish, and ultimately assume [1] that intelligent people (which is what I'd find fair to describe the people at Google who were supposed to work on "killer drones") do have high ethical standards. Of unintelligent people, its less surprising. I don't deny the existence of people who don't have the same ethical standard as me though. I never claimed or argued those people did or did not exist at Go…

> high ethical standards Ethical standards are do not lie on a single dimension and words "high" and "low" don't sufficiently describe them. Ethics and morality is a complicated mess of game theory, neuroscience, evolutionary biology and logic. The same people that you implicitly describe as having "low" ethical standards are making that decision contrary to their immediate self-interest, out of very noble considerat…

My ethical standard is closer that an American life (or Dutch, for that matter) is worth a human life than the general population, sure, but there's a bottom line, too. If you don't have high ethical standards you shouldn't be put in a position where you can exercise power. It is that simple. If your ethical standard is to shoot civilians from an Apache, and cover it up accordingly, you have no place in the military. In any military.

Its not so much a trolley problem or equivalent, what we discuss is downright racism/discrimination.

Re: Secessio plebis

#38

Post by boomboomsubban »

It should be noted that Roman history of this period is highly mythologized. Rome was sacked in 389, and it is commonly believed that most of the records from before that date were destroyed during the sack. This would make the earliest source possible come from a century after the major events, and our primary source, Livy, was using those sources three more centuries later.

Our current versions of these events are likely based on populari politician's recreation of the events, then further altered to promote the Julio-Claudian dynasty.

Re: Secessio plebis

#39

Post by andrepd »

atemerev wrote: post #21
Fnoord wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do sincerely hope, wish, and ultimately assume [1] that intelligent people (which is what I'd find fair to describe the people at Google who were supposed to work on "killer drones") do have high ethical standards. Of unintelligent people, its less surprising. I don't deny the existence of people who don't have the same ethical standard as me though. I never claimed or argued those people did or did not exist at Go…

Working on drones saves soldiers’ lives. Working for intelligence saves civilian lives by preventing terrorist plots. People who work for the military and the intelligence usually see themselves as paragons of high ethical standards.

>Working on drones saves soldiers’ lives. Working for intelligence saves civilian lives by preventing terrorist plots.

You seem to regard us as the "good guys". I suggest you read more on the atrocities committed by the United States and by the allies it arms and supports, both historical and those happening right now.

Was it last week that our dear democratic ally the Saudi Arabia bombed a schoolbus full of children? How many months has their blockade of Yemen been in place now? And how many civilians have died of famine?

Please... Factually speaking, our military is working to further our economic interests, not for any ideal of liberty or protection, committing any atrocities they can get away with for that goal.

Re: Secessio plebis

#40

Post by andrepd »

golergka wrote: post #36
pjc50 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working for intelligence saves civilian lives Well, apart from all those airstrikes on schoolbuses.

You have to look at the net result. If you're 50% certain that a schoolbus with 30 children has a leader of a terrorist cell that will on average perform one attack with ~100 casualties 1-2 times a year, and otherwise this terrorist is expected to have a life expectancy of 3-5 years, and without him this cell has a 60-70% probability of disintegrating, it's a very clear cut case. I don't personally work in intelligen…

Your analysis is predicated on the fact that the war is being done to protect against terrorism, when in fact its a war being waged for economic gain and geopolitical influence.
Post reply on HN