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Kotlin 1.2.60 comes with native compiler binaries

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Re: Kotlin 1.2.60 comes with native compiler binaries

#31

Post by misterbowfinger »

skrebbel wrote: post #12
rooam-dev wrote: post #2

Is it just me or it's strange that there are so many IDE related fixes in a programming language release?

Isn't that fantastic? The whole idea that developer productivity (and thus, tool support) shouldn't be a part of programming language design has been flawed from the beginning and I'm happy times are finally changing.

I do think it's great, but I'm worried that as Kotlin grows, so does Jetbrains hold on IntelliJ and the IDE market. IMO, any change that benefits IntelliJ should theoretically be applicable to NetBeans.

Maybe it's already this way? I'm really not sure, but I'd appreciate a NetBeans or IntelliJ dev to clarify. It'd be awesome if these changes were done collaboratively.

Re: Kotlin 1.2.60 comes with native compiler binaries

#32

Post by yawz »

misterbowfinger wrote: post #31
skrebbel wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that fantastic? The whole idea that developer productivity (and thus, tool support) shouldn't be a part of programming language design has been flawed from the beginning and I'm happy times are finally changing.

I do think it's great, but I'm worried that as Kotlin grows, so does Jetbrains hold on IntelliJ and the IDE market. IMO, any change that benefits IntelliJ should theoretically be applicable to NetBeans. Maybe it's already this way? I'm really not sure, but I'd appreciate a NetBeans or IntelliJ dev to clarify. It'd be awesome if these changes were done collaboratively.

IntelliJ is "the" IDE market, but not the entire ecosystem.

Re: Kotlin 1.2.60 comes with native compiler binaries

#33

Post by namedlambda »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #28
rooam-dev wrote: post #2

Is it just me or it's strange that there are so many IDE related fixes in a programming language release?

Not so strange if you realize that an IDE needs to do essentially the same type of things as a compiler in order to offer things like refactorings, autocompletion, etc. Idea developed Kotlin as a better Java. Most of their IDE is now written in it. Deep integration with the IDE was a design goal from day 1. They release the IDE plugin and compiler with the same version number. They are basically developed together. I…

An IDE is essentially an extended front-end for a compiler.

Re: Kotlin 1.2.60 comes with native compiler binaries

#34

Post by bitL »

skocznymroczny wrote: post #9
rooam-dev wrote: post #2

Is it just me or it's strange that there are so many IDE related fixes in a programming language release?

I think it's a symptom of times changing. People don't want to code in vi/nano anymore. A general purpose language launching today is expected to have a good support in an IDE. At least autocompletion, support for building and debugging, refactoring if possible. Also people prefer to have a one well working IDE plugin than several half-baked ones that don't offer much more than syntax highlighting. That's why IDE plu…

I went the other way round; dumped all JetBrains stuff and now write most things in Atom/Nuclide. At least it's not as slow with very large files as JetBrains stuff. I realized with Deep Learning work and Jupyter Notebook that I actually don't need IDE anymore...

Re: Kotlin 1.2.60 comes with native compiler binaries

#35

Post by mlevental »

floatboth wrote: post #4

Not to be confused with https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin-native — this is the Java version compiled with Excelsior JET, a proprietary AOT Java compiler thing.

sorry dumb question (i think that answer is yes): can i use this to build a statically linked binary of my kotlin app?

Re: Kotlin 1.2.60 comes with native compiler binaries

#36

Post by rpeden »

pookeh wrote: post #21
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C# also has always been done like this, but 20 years ago only Microsoft could pull that off.

The father of C# also created Typescript and we now see the same level of language tooling support OOTB with the Typescript compiler. It's a fantastic initiative -- in such a short time we see many IDEs support consistent auto-complete, refactoring and so much more.

He also created Turbo Pascal and Delphi, which both had pretty great tooling support in their respective heydeys.

Re: Kotlin 1.2.60 comes with native compiler binaries

#37

Post by jorgemf »

bitL wrote: post #34
skocznymroczny wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a symptom of times changing. People don't want to code in vi/nano anymore. A general purpose language launching today is expected to have a good support in an IDE. At least autocompletion, support for building and debugging, refactoring if possible. Also people prefer to have a one well working IDE plugin than several half-baked ones that don't offer much more than syntax highlighting. That's why IDE plu…

I went the other way round; dumped all JetBrains stuff and now write most things in Atom/Nuclide. At least it's not as slow with very large files as JetBrains stuff. I realized with Deep Learning work and Jupyter Notebook that I actually don't need IDE anymore...

How do you use Jupyter for Deep Learning? I can only think about prototyping stuff, but not for training a large dataset (that doesn't fit in memory) for days.

Re: Kotlin 1.2.60 comes with native compiler binaries

#38

Post by floatboth »

mlevental wrote: post #35
floatboth wrote: post #4

Not to be confused with https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin-native — this is the Java version compiled with Excelsior JET, a proprietary AOT Java compiler thing.

sorry dumb question (i think that answer is yes): can i use this to build a statically linked binary of my kotlin app?

You can use Kotlin Native to do that — if your app doesn't depend on anything JVM-specific (apart from the small subset of basic things reimplemented in Native), of course.

Re: Kotlin 1.2.60 comes with native compiler binaries

#39

Post by wenc »

skocznymroczny wrote: post #9
rooam-dev wrote: post #2

Is it just me or it's strange that there are so many IDE related fixes in a programming language release?

I think it's a symptom of times changing. People don't want to code in vi/nano anymore. A general purpose language launching today is expected to have a good support in an IDE. At least autocompletion, support for building and debugging, refactoring if possible. Also people prefer to have a one well working IDE plugin than several half-baked ones that don't offer much more than syntax highlighting. That's why IDE plu…

> I think it's a symptom of times changing. People don't want to code in vi/nano anymore.

Not sure if that is true. Many people are still using vim for many newer languages. I think it depends on the language.

Some languages are simply more IDE-reliant than others. Statically typed languages with a large vocabulary (Java, C#, Scala) tend to benefit more from IDEs than simple, dynamic languages like Python and Ruby.

And there are newer languages like Go. Go was designed to not require an IDE while not being opposed to one.

I think the language server idea is a brilliant one and probably something we'll see more and more of, because it makes a language completely editor/IDE agnostic. It would allow folks using vim or VS code to debug or refactor as cleanly as full-blown IDEs. I suspect this will lead to a decline in the specialized IDE market (Jetbrains).

Re: Kotlin 1.2.60 comes with native compiler binaries

#40

Post by wenc »

ethelward wrote: post #18
dakna wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started programming with Turbo Pascal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo_Pascal and as far as I remember I never had to leave the IDE. The step-by-step debugger felt like magic.

That's true, Turbo Pascal was awesome. But to stay realist, it was rather an exception than the rule at the time.

There was also Turbo C/C++, Turbo Basic, Turbo Prolog.

On the Microsoft side, there as Quick C, Quick Basic, etc.

IDEs were the norm rather than the exception in the 80s and 90s for DOS machines. Writing code on DOS with a plain-text editor was a little unusual, whereas on Unix it was a norm.

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