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The inescapable weight of my student debt

theguardian.com

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Re: The inescapable weight of my student debt

#31

Post by sunshinelackof »

bufferoverflow wrote: post #13
toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I paid for my own education in the US, and I worked while studying. It wasn't easy, but I recognized the value of money. A single anecdote holds no value for broad policy decisions. > I'm not even sure what your argument is for. Do you want us to pitch in for his bad financial decisions? Why don't you pay him from your checking account, show us how it's done? I financially support candidates who support discharging…

I assume "discharging student loan debt" is the euphemism for "let the taxpayer pay for that undesirable pile of shit that he chose to study". That will only worsen the situation - more young people will study shit that's not in demand.

What qualifies a degree as an "undesirable pile of shit?" Studying English is not at all useless. It definitely provides value to our society and produces people with useful skills applicable across disciplines. Being burdened with student loans pigeon holes great minds into safe jobs that don't make use of their skills.

Re: The inescapable weight of my student debt

#32

Post by SamReidHughes »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #7
fatalVoltage wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do actually since when I was 17 I got advice by all my teachers, parents, etc to go into something that pays. Also it's just common sense that you need money to pay your bills, therefore you need a job that is in demand.

The part of the brain responsible for critical reasoning about consequences isn't fully developed until 25 (see: car rental company age limits). Also, congrats on your strong support system! A lot of people don't have that, and you can't form public policy based on your sole experience.

Just because the brain isn't done developing, that doesn't mean you can't start using it when you're a teenager. However, getting an English literature degree is crazy and the only reason a kid would think that was a good idea is if everybody around him lied to him about it.

Re: The inescapable weight of my student debt

#33

Post by sunshinelackof »

fatalVoltage wrote: post #2

As soon as I read that he graduated with a degree in "English Literature" I knew what the problem was - what did he expect? Where does he think the demand for that is? How did he justify 100k$ for such a degree ( or any degree for that part )? There are so many jobs like welding, plumbing, etc that need to be done, pay very good money and require no ( or very small ) loans, and he studied something like English Liter…

This comes off as peering from an ivory tower - essentially "stop studying literature and fix my pipes." Considering we are probably collectively in the wealthiest period humanity has ever experienced we could try not leaving the arts completely out to dry.

Re: The inescapable weight of my student debt

#34

Post by cellularmitosis »

thebigspacefuck wrote: post #27
cellularmitosis wrote: post #25

“I have spent a great deal of time during the last decade shifting the blame for my debt. Whose fault was it?” After all that he has been through, he still doesn’t seem to give consideration to his choice of major as the root source of the problem.

He does consider it. "Or was it my fault for not having the foresight to realise it was a mistake to spend roughly $200,000 on a school where, in order to get my degree, I kept a journal about reading Virginia Woolf?"

Oh, I thought he was calling into question the quality of his school or department in that statement.

Re: The inescapable weight of my student debt

#35

Post by firic »

sunshinelackof wrote: post #33
fatalVoltage wrote: post #2

As soon as I read that he graduated with a degree in "English Literature" I knew what the problem was - what did he expect? Where does he think the demand for that is? How did he justify 100k$ for such a degree ( or any degree for that part )? There are so many jobs like welding, plumbing, etc that need to be done, pay very good money and require no ( or very small ) loans, and he studied something like English Liter…

This comes off as peering from an ivory tower - essentially "stop studying literature and fix my pipes." Considering we are probably collectively in the wealthiest period humanity has ever experienced we could try not leaving the arts completely out to dry.

Two things can be right at once. People who took out 100k loans to study a useless degree are stupid. And, undischargable loans probably shouldn't be a thing even if that means that some people will miss out studying their passion. In order to not leave arts out to die, people who want to learn arts should apply for grants from people who value arts. I don't value arts that much so I wouldn't pay. but if you value arts enough, feel free to support an artist with your money.

Re: The inescapable weight of my student debt

#36

Post by willio58 »

Great read. Looking back I’m so glad I chose to go with the in-state public school in my home town for a CS degree. I am looking at graduating in a year with zero debt and some good career prospects.

Makes me shutter now to think I was considering out of state $40-50k per year universities. I was 17 years old and in my undeveloped head I was really thinking it would be worth it..

Re: The inescapable weight of my student debt

#37

Post by willio58 »

vectorEQ wrote: post #20

>.> bad parenting letting their kid rack up 100k in debt.

It’s a bit more complex than that. Yes it’s some really horrible advice they gave, but they gave it founded on the weird idea that had been hammered into their heads—that if they sent their child to a good school they would be successful in life.

The author acknowledges this. It’s akin to the American dream. I think getting the word out with pieces like this is a good step in the right direction.

Re: The inescapable weight of my student debt

#38

Post by sunshinelackof »

firic wrote: post #35
sunshinelackof wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comes off as peering from an ivory tower - essentially "stop studying literature and fix my pipes." Considering we are probably collectively in the wealthiest period humanity has ever experienced we could try not leaving the arts completely out to dry.

Two things can be right at once. People who took out 100k loans to study a useless degree are stupid. And, undischargable loans probably shouldn't be a thing even if that means that some people will miss out studying their passion. In order to not leave arts out to die, people who want to learn arts should apply for grants from people who value arts. I don't value arts that much so I wouldn't pay. but if you value ar…

Unfortunately I think that's a little idealistic. Compulsory support and funding by the state for the arts and sciences is necessary for a host of reasons. You could say similar things about about climate change - if you care about it, you pay for it. But we know that the individual cannot solve climate change and that it requires some form of top down movement. Maybe it's not fair comparison, but I'm arguing that continual and consistent support for arts and sciences is basically a requirement for the same reasons and that in practice only governments are able to maintain.

Now on the individual level it might be a dumb decision, though it's a hard argument to make to someone in that position. What an enormous opportunity cost it is to not take the loan if you think you'll succeed. It's a bad situation for everyone involved and there isn't a good answer to the individuals in or about to be in that situation.

Re: The inescapable weight of my student debt

#39

Post by milesvp »

honkycat wrote: post #26

>> “I have spent a great deal of time during the last decade shifting the blame for my debt. Whose fault was it?” There is no one single person to point to, but I'll take a whack at it: 1. The father, who should know better, for agreeing to co-sign a loan for a worthless degree. A 5 minute conversation with ANYONE related to the degree would have told him the facts. I wanted to be a video game designer and my parents…

You missed one.

4. The government for passing legislation making the discharge of student debt in bankruptcy nearly impossible.

When people talk about the inflation of the cost of a university degree I never see as the number one cause for it being the no risk loans to people who have no money sense (17 year olds) that pour money into the system.

Bankruptcy is a vital check valve on financial systems as well as an essential safety net to allow risk taking, even if that risk taking is pursuing a worthless degree.

I was lucky, in that I knew I could only afford in state tuition at a university where I could live at home. I used to laugh at some of my high school peers who were going off to really expensive liberal arts colleges. I still think it was foolish for most of them, but now that I'm older I really hope the decisions didn't cripple them financially.

Re: The inescapable weight of my student debt

#40

Post by bufferoverflow »

sunshinelackof wrote: post #31
bufferoverflow wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume "discharging student loan debt" is the euphemism for "let the taxpayer pay for that undesirable pile of shit that he chose to study". That will only worsen the situation - more young people will study shit that's not in demand.

What qualifies a degree as an "undesirable pile of shit?" Studying English is not at all useless. It definitely provides value to our society and produces people with useful skills applicable across disciplines. Being burdened with student loans pigeon holes great minds into safe jobs that don't make use of their skills.

It's quite simple - if you can't pay off your student debt with the skills you paid for, it's generally undesirable by outside world.

Whether English or history is somewhat useful is irrelevant - pretty much any area of knowledge is. They clearly are not in high demand.

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