Live data from Hacker News

What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

freemovement.org.uk

31–40 of 192 posts

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#31
Bureaucrats the world over are frustrating.

It's surprising in some ways, since the thing that distinguishes government from the private sector is that government is optimized for safety, equality, impartiality, etc, rather than for profit.

But perhaps the way they achieve such impartiality is by codifying absolutely every detail, and then you end up with situations like this one.

Stepping back though, the British immigration system is indeed quite hostile. Possibly one reason may be that once you are 'in', you get automatic access to a huge array of valuable state services; free healthcare, schooling, etc. If you've ever lived in places that have none of these, you can really appreciate how valuable they are.

And I think a 'solution' to that issue could be to have stricter controls on who gets access to all those services, but be less strict about who can come and stay - based on skills perhaps.

And while they're at it they could make it easier for Britons who have married foreigners and had kids abroad, to be able to repatriate - as it is, it's more than a little difficult. I understand the rules are to prevent some the gross abuses that have occurred, eg recently-established Britons bringing in uneducated "wives" from foreign rural villages and so on, but they also deeply affect more legitimate situations.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#32
post #18

I don’t think the government did anything wrong; The rules aren’t meant to be bent, and if Lucas made a mistake in filing the wrong paperwork, it absolutely makes sense for the consequences to follow. In these serious legal matters, you need to seek counsel. This article attempts to paint a picture of the poor child, but the law was clear, and any emotional appeal should be invalid.

Thankfully while the beaurocracy might like it better dishing out cold refusals based on a misfiled form, the law doesn’t work that way. You don’t actually get to throw away someone’s station in life because of a paperwork mistake. And we see once a judge was involved in fact the law made the right call. Of course Lucas fucked up by filling out the wrong form and should have had a lawyer review it. And his immigratio…

If you need a lawyer to decide what form to fill out, that might be an indication that the form is bad. Do we really want a world where you need to consult a lawyer for every communication with the government, so as to be sure that the government doesn't try to screw you over?

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#33

"Indefinite leave to remain" sounds like some almost Orwellian concoction of meaninglessness to me. How exactly do you get from "permission to stay in the country" (aha, it means one has the permission to stay in the country) to "indefinite leave to remain" (uhm... to remain here, I need to leave indefinitely?)

"leave" as a noun that means roughly "permission" and the verb form of "leave" to mean "depart" both comes from Old English words (the noun form from "leafe", the verb form from "læfan") that has meanings closer to the noun form ("permission"), but the meaning of the noun form is older, as the verb form first took on the modern meaning ca. 1200.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#34

"Indefinite leave to remain" sounds like some almost Orwellian concoction of meaninglessness to me. How exactly do you get from "permission to stay in the country" (aha, it means one has the permission to stay in the country) to "indefinite leave to remain" (uhm... to remain here, I need to leave indefinitely?)

You do know that's "leave" as a noun, meaning "permission", right? It's a bit formal, but this is a government office we're talking about.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#35

"Indefinite leave to remain" sounds like some almost Orwellian concoction of meaninglessness to me. How exactly do you get from "permission to stay in the country" (aha, it means one has the permission to stay in the country) to "indefinite leave to remain" (uhm... to remain here, I need to leave indefinitely?)

Meta comment: "blattimwind" comment is grey at the moment. What is the point to down vote someone that has just misunderstood an arguably ambiguous expression ?

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#36
I mean the British bureaucracy has an extremely well chronicled tradition of Kafkaesque obstinacy and causing chaos via slavish adherence to rules that long predates this issue right. I believe Douglas Adams used this fact as the basis for a series of books.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#37
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same reason that people living in nice neighborhoods with nice houses don't invite all the people living in the slums to come live with them. This happens in non-English speaking countries also.

Mind providing an example?

Japan. South Korea. Switzerland.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#38

"Indefinite leave to remain" sounds like some almost Orwellian concoction of meaninglessness to me. How exactly do you get from "permission to stay in the country" (aha, it means one has the permission to stay in the country) to "indefinite leave to remain" (uhm... to remain here, I need to leave indefinitely?)

“Leave” is a noun in this case and indeed a synonym of “permission”.

I suppose it can be confusing due to being a homonym to the verb “to leave” but it’s a rather common legal term (see AWOL, for instance).

English, legal English in particular, is rife with apparent inconsistencies like this one. Because of its Anglo-Saxon roots and conquests by both the Danes and the Normans, who asserted their power in part through language, there are many concepts in English for which there are both words of Germanic and Latin, as well as French origin.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#39
What a weird submission title ("Mistakenly apply for British citizenship instead of indefinite leave to remain").

The original title ("What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship instead of indefinite leave to remain?") is probably too long for HN, but I'd rather shorten it to:

"What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?"

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#40
I speak as an immigrant. I see a lot of comments not being too kind to people who aren't welcoming of immigrants. As a person, I actually do understand. Not everyone is going to like me. As an African I do wish some of this energy would be directed to the African leaders that make their countries so terrible that someone feels it is better to jump on a rickety boat in search of a better life. These African "leaders" send their kids to school in the west, they go to the west when sick. I wish all this energy against people who don't want immigrants is directed at the people who made us immigrants in the first place. My first choice is a return to my country.
Post reply on HN