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Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

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Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#31

Post by bumholio »

LarryL wrote: post #17

The title of the article is misleading, it's not programming that is the real issue, it's billing (the progamming issues are just a part in the article). Since the Credit Card companies & banks create lots of problems as soon as sex is involved (see FetLife's misadventures in HN previous articles for instance) in addition to the big chargebacks issue, and given that customers lie a lot (because they can), I think tha…

The problem with this approach, and the related proposals like 3D Secure and Bitcoin, is precisely that it puts a low ceiling on what the site is allowed to charge to exactly what the customer is willing to spend on porn. The bread and butter of porn and most other internet subscription models is to get hold of the consumer credit card data and then setup a long run recurring payment stream, on the expectation that while most people will cancel it, a profitable minority will forget or enjoy and pay for the service further.

If just 25% of the customers let the subscription run for an average of 1 additional year, you will net 4x more money compared to a site that needs to renew the purchase every month, with zero customer acquisition costs and zero marginal costs for the provider - the content and platform are a sunk cost and traffic charges are negligible. Only now you have 4x more money to produce the content and generally be more competitive, pushing out of the market those who don't adopt the same tricks.

This is what The New York Times and porn sites have in common, and that's why you will see similar dark patterns of making subscription hard to cancel. In the porn's case, it's a much steeper uphill battle to get the money from the customer and his bank (and his wife), so they are forever relegated to the high-chargeback bin and must internalize that into their business model. Which might explain some of the "breakage" the original author is observing.

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#32

Post by code_duck »

gonzo41 wrote: post #3

Two thoughts about all this pop up. You'd think porn companies would charge with sensible names? And I'm surprised Stripe wouldn't build an off brand company to handle this part of the market. Seems like it's just giving up on a lot of money for 'reasons' Though similar problems exist in business for things like weed companies. Banks don't want to touch em.

The problems with legal cannabis companies accessing credit card systems have nothing to do with banks worrying about public perception or societal issues. It is entirely because it is federally illegal, and banks are federally regulated.

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#33

Post by lowercased »

saurik wrote: post #13

> Speaking of fees... Stripe charges 2.9% + .30 cents per transaction. Some of the billers in the porn industry charge up to 30% per transaction. Yup, 30% (not cents; percent) PER CHARGE. So if we charge someone $1.00 for a 1 day trial, the biller gets 30 cents off the top. This was a really bad example, as Stripe actually charges more than 30 cents for a $1 charge ;P. More reasonable companies (including PayPal) giv…

The paypal route made you choose which type of processing the account would be. "microtransaction" account was indeed the 5% plus 5c, and the 'regular' was the 2.9%. One account didn't process both ways.

Would be nicer if paypal just ... adjusted your charges. I used paypal in a situation where some charges would be ~$5, and some would be $50+. The 5% rate applied to a $60 charge was comparatively crazy. I ended up creating 2 paypal accounts, and routed $5 charges to the 'micropayment' account, and others to the regular once. It was against paypal terms of service, technically, but... was also annoying. I was doing enough transactions that the 2% spread was... well... I wasn't raking in millions, but the 2-3k I did some months meant a difference of $50/month or so.

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#34

Post by teekert »

lagadu wrote: post #10
teekert wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think margins are going down and there are plenty of stories of women being completely stuck in a world they don't want to be in, some of them actually struggling with mental issues. Sure, some probably like it but I can understand that companies prefer not to be associated with a world that seemingly contains a lot of misery. There are plenty of documentaries about the industry, they don't paint a rosy picture.

> I can understand that companies prefer not to be associated with a world that seemingly contains a lot of misery. They're already in the pharma and health business.

I understand the down voting and I also understand your response. But wouldn't it be nice if there were fair-trade porn sites? Where we know people are treated an paid well? It's insane that there is so much for free while there is so much work involved.

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#35

Post by kennydude »

gonzo41 wrote: post #3

Two thoughts about all this pop up. You'd think porn companies would charge with sensible names? And I'm surprised Stripe wouldn't build an off brand company to handle this part of the market. Seems like it's just giving up on a lot of money for 'reasons' Though similar problems exist in business for things like weed companies. Banks don't want to touch em.

If you contact them about err... things that may be close to the line, they do have links with companies who are willing to take on a higher risk business

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#36

Post by uRreading2slow »

krapp wrote: post #21
uRreading2slow wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree, but in this day and age, there is also real horrid, vile stuff... just follow banner ads on random free porn sites and you'll find a lot that is more an excessive dehumanization arms race than anything to do with sex. People don't have to be ashamed of it in the sense that they didn't choose to get so damaged to be attracted by it, but abuse and it's consequences is a major elephant on the couch of…

There is plenty of exploitation and abuse (including sexual abuse) in mainstream media as well... but because there isn't a public stigma attached to that, it's possible for public and political pressures to be arrayed against it. But since we're all supposed to be ashamed of porn and sex outside of marriage in the west, the worst of those industries are just considered par for the course and left to fester.

> we're all supposed to be ashamed of porn and sex outside of marriage in the west

So basically, you're not aware of any of the stuff I'm referring to, and reroute it to what you do know. It isn't the weakest possible interpretation of what I wrote, it's completely out of bounds -- there is no way you honestly think I'm referring to extramarital sex with "horrible, vile stuff" and "excessive dehumanization". And it's pointless and a bit unfair, because I can't show you anything, and even to just describe it in detail would ruin my day.

I don't feel anything I'm "supposed to" either -- including this idea that if someone is into X, and it's legal, you can't say bad things about it, but they can say good things about it all day long. Because "it's a thing", and once it's a thing, it's just there in the world as an item to pick off the shelf and consume, and the cardinal sin is to have any opinions on the choices of other consumers. All that matters is that someone wants something, and that it's legal. People are into things because they are into them, end of discussion, and in many cases also end of reflection.

That's like one "camp", and anyone who has anything to say about that other than "awesome" has be be conservative, religious, whatever. It's like many conflicts, try to talk sense to hawks on either side and they cannot imagine you as anything but a "supporter of the other side". If you can imagine shame and horror only as response to social conditioning, religious upbringing, and so on, you by necessity cannot understand where I'm coming from.

If I had the choice to give an earful to anyone who consumes or makes movies and games and music, as someone who gamed a lot, loves music (but to be honest kinda stopped watching a lot of movies) or to anyone who makes or consumes porn, porn doesn't even enter consideration. But the subject at hand was porn, and while I don't think the person I responded to meant it that way, taken literally they said that any adult site, i.e. all of them, is nothing to be ashamed of. That is the only reason I responded, that's too broad for me to agree.

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#37

Post by SmellyGeekBoy »

greyman wrote: post #28
LarryL wrote: post #17

The title of the article is misleading, it's not programming that is the real issue, it's billing (the progamming issues are just a part in the article). Since the Credit Card companies & banks create lots of problems as soon as sex is involved (see FetLife's misadventures in HN previous articles for instance) in addition to the big chargebacks issue, and given that customers lie a lot (because they can), I think tha…

> Of course, to REALLY solve the problem you'd "only" need people to stop seeing sex (and porn) as bad, dirty, taboo, etc. But this won't happen anytime soon :-((( It won't, since it is not universally true, that seeing porn is not bad. There are thousands of personal accounts, or even a whole communities of people, who are trying to get rid of porn watching due to damage it brought to their lives.

I'd say that gambling does a lot worse damage and that is much more widespread and "legitimate" (here in the UK at least). Online gambling sites are even advertised on primetime TV!

Or for a better example of a perfectly above-board and healthy activity enjoyed by huge numbers of people that can become addictive and "a problem" - how about gaming?

(I'm not trying to belittle your point or resort to "whataboutism" here, just pointing out some examples from other industries).

The problem with porn is that it's sex and sex is dirty and bad and you should feel ashamed for having anything to do with it. /s

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#38

Post by [deleted] »

caruana wrote: post #30
akanet wrote: post #14

This article is extremely alarming. The process the author is calling "cascade billing" is money laundering. This exact process of disguising the nature of transactions to get banking institutions to transfer funds is literally what the feds took down Backpage for recently. I am very familiar with the details of that case and am surprised to see someone be so cavalier with the details publicly. Many adult services pr…

They are selling content through different payment services, this is not money laundering, stop being an alarmist. "the concealment of the origins of illegally obtained money, typically by means of transfers involving foreign banks or legitimate businesses" Illegally obtained money being they key term! > literally what the feds took down Backpage for recently. Also, incorrect. Backpage was taken down because they fac…

[deleted]

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#39

Post by kennydude »

philip1209 wrote: post #25

Some questions: - Would ACH solve an issue like this? There are some clean interfaces (e.g. Plaid), and chargebacks are not trivial. - Would 3-D secure solve the chargeback problem? As I understand it, it shifts liability to the consumer, not the business. - Is blockchain being adopted anywhere for micropayments like this?

> Would ACH solve an issue like this?

Still doesn't solve the problem of people with shared accounts and then one half pays for porn without telling the other. It happens so often UK banks have ways of looking up subscriptions.

People would reverse the transaction, still enjoy porn and the company goes out of business.

> Would 3-D secure solve the chargeback problem?

As far as I know, that's a European only thing? It shifts it to the consumer, but people get very angry on the phone to the bank causing a higher chargeback rate.

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#40

Post by bumholio »

akanet wrote: post #14

This article is extremely alarming. The process the author is calling "cascade billing" is money laundering. This exact process of disguising the nature of transactions to get banking institutions to transfer funds is literally what the feds took down Backpage for recently. I am very familiar with the details of that case and am surprised to see someone be so cavalier with the details publicly. Many adult services pr…

Money laundry means disguising illicit gains as lawful gains to hide the fact that you are breaking the law. In the Backpage case, the law that were broken pertained to child prostitution. Moving legal money around, no matter how complex, is not money laundry by itself.

The intention here is to circumvent the high chargeback rate of porn by disguising the purchase from the customer's bank, thus making it harder for him to issue the chargeback for an amount you have legally charged. That does not sound like an illegal action, but a breach of contract with the payment processor.

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