Six Months at Riot Games • Hacker News Board

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#31

Post by exelius » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:03 PM UTC

shard972 wrote: post #23

irb wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If use of racist and homophobic slurs is 'gaming culture' then there is problem with gaming culture. I don't really see how that kind of language is something that needs protecting.

I think there is something wrong with a culture that feels the need to supress what is effectively amateur comedy going on within small groups. Targeted harassment sure, that's not something to just blindly protect but as a homosexual, i see more harm in trying to police jimmy calling his friends faggots playing CoD than I see in allowing people to speak their minds. Until someone can posit a great explanation for wh…

It’s more that you shouldn’t use that word in the first place — it doesn’t matter if your friends are gay or not; the fact it’s a hateful insult that tells gay men they are lesser is enough. Imagine the young little gay kid who hears “f\t” screamed 20 times an hour — how will that make him feel for the rest of his life? Are you just cementing in his head that it’s wrong to be gay?

I hate to say it, but the days of absolute freedom of speech may be over. Everything these days is done through a commercial platform, and we’re now saying those platforms have editorial responsibility to monitor that speech (outside of any government mandate so it doesn’t fall afoul of 1st amendment).

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#32

Post by StreamBright » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:03 PM UTC

amarant wrote: post #8

wow, I would expect such behavior from teenage gamers, but I'm surprised to see it reported among (presumably adult) game-devs. what is perhaps even more surprising is that they seem to somehow be able to cooperate enough to deliver a undeniably popular game. don't get me wrong, I don't doubt for a second that what Meagan says is true. I am simply surprised they manage to produce anything at all in such a culture, le…

> I am simply surprised they manage to produce anything at all in such a culture, let alone a hit game.

they are lucky, largely. there are enough people who put in just enough work to keep all things happening and there is roughly (my estimate, dont hold me accountable) 50% who are just there doing nothing. you could not do this at amazon or other performance focused companies because it would be obvious after very little time that you are not pulling your weight, but since Riot does not have the same level of management, tooling and insights into employee performance they don't care. the money is flowing in, all good.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#33

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:03 PM UTC

unstableph wrote: post #6

vaeix wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your gaming culture is not my gaming culture. You can say nasty things to each other without being racist or homophobic, especially at a place of work.

Of course, I agree. As I said there's this new "egalitarian and respectful and social justice and all of that" culture that is being created by the games I mentioned and many others, but traditional online games will probably always follow the "classic" gaming culture. "A place of work", that's another matter; I agree it's unprofessional. I'm talking purely about videogames and those who play them at home.

> "A place of work", that's another matter; I agree it's unprofessional. I'm talking purely about videogames and those who play them at home.

At a gaming company where people play the game they make at work, what happens to this boundary?

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#34

Post by yellowcherry » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:04 PM UTC

amarant wrote: post #8

wow, I would expect such behavior from teenage gamers, but I'm surprised to see it reported among (presumably adult) game-devs. what is perhaps even more surprising is that they seem to somehow be able to cooperate enough to deliver a undeniably popular game. don't get me wrong, I don't doubt for a second that what Meagan says is true. I am simply surprised they manage to produce anything at all in such a culture, le…

You have some very very wrong ideas about how the world actually works.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#35

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:04 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #28

xsace wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am simply surprised they manage to produce anything at all in such a culture, let alone a hit game. The same culture you can find in Holywood, where hundreds of successful movies with unrivaled popular impact were produced.

You seem to be suggesting that such a culture is not an impediment to success, based on the existence of some success. I could blindfold myself and throw darts at a board. The fact that I hit the board sometimes doesn't mean that the blindfold isn't an impediment. Many more movies fail before even reaching the screen. Just because we see some success doesn't mean that the culture isn't an impediment to success. Perha…

[deleted]

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#36

Post by talonx » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:04 PM UTC

Just curious - is such toxic culture more common in game-dev companies? Some of us would remember the EA Spouse story [1] - one of the first such public disclosures. Have there been any studies done of the prevalence of such culture across different software dev teams?

[1] https://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#37

Post by StreamBright » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:05 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #29

shawn wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh, that logic doesn’t folllow. Heh. I’m a former S2 dev (heroes of newerth, a pretty similar game). The player base is uncontrollable. It’s a bunch of testosterone fueled teens. Granted, we didn’t have any women in leadership positions either, but I’d like to think that was more because we were relatively small and it was Kalamazoo.

> uncontrollable It's not uncontrollable, you'd just rather have their money than ban them.

if you ban them they stop spending.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#38

Post by amarant » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:05 PM UTC

Kurtz79 wrote: post #21

amarant wrote: post #8

wow, I would expect such behavior from teenage gamers, but I'm surprised to see it reported among (presumably adult) game-devs. what is perhaps even more surprising is that they seem to somehow be able to cooperate enough to deliver a undeniably popular game. don't get me wrong, I don't doubt for a second that what Meagan says is true. I am simply surprised they manage to produce anything at all in such a culture, le…

It's not exactly a new thing, even outside of gaming: https://www.businessinsider.com/bro-culture-harassment-discr... If you have been exposed to the same culture through school, higher education and then finally the workplace, it is not suprising some people find it acceptable or even normal...

I was exposed to that kind of culture in school/uni, and while I got used to it at the time, I much prefer the slightly more civil relationships I now have with colleagues. getting rid of the toxicity is one of the greatest advantages of professional work life compared to my days studying imho.

I mean the pay is nice too, but it was less important to me before I got used to it. Now it would be hard to give up though ;P

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#39

Post by shawn » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:05 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #29

shawn wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh, that logic doesn’t folllow. Heh. I’m a former S2 dev (heroes of newerth, a pretty similar game). The player base is uncontrollable. It’s a bunch of testosterone fueled teens. Granted, we didn’t have any women in leadership positions either, but I’d like to think that was more because we were relatively small and it was Kalamazoo.

> uncontrollable It's not uncontrollable, you'd just rather have their money than ban them.

No, I assure you it’s uncontrollable. There are millions of games played per day on Dota. How do you propose to fairly evaluate each of them?

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#40

Post by lsmarigo » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:06 PM UTC

Interesting that this one is doing well compared to the longer in-depth kotaku article a few days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17710188 - fwiw that piece has since been corroborated by a ton of former riot employees on twitter.

At the risk of sounding overly cynical, this is all true and everyone knows about it, people feign disgust at these articles but we're all complicit and understanding that this is way things are. If people are truly shocked by this I would contend they are either young and inexperienced or incredibly naive. This article will get some discussion going for a few days then we'll quietly return to the status quo. Nothing will change.