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Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

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Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#31

Post by michaelscott »

extralego wrote: post #19

I am confused about something that seems very basic, and hoping somebody can help me out with this. I have always supported left politics, and I think I understand the basics of supply-and-demand economics. If immigrants come to the US looking for work instead of bringing work, there should be a higher supply of labor, driving the low-end pay-rate down. Given that the low-end rate has gone down significantly througho…

A higher supply of cheaper labour does contribute to the reduced pay but by far the biggest influence is the stagnation of wages over those 3 decades (i.e. it's not that wages have gone down, they just largely haven't gone up).

Average, inflation adjusted wage growth has been projected as low as 0.2% year on year in some cases, and this affects most forms of work not just the low end.

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#32

Post by iamshs »

jkaplowitz wrote: post #18
iamshs wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You score lower points in Canadian system too, if your spouse is less qualified. But the point impact is maximum 40 points. It can absolutely hurt some people. Here's the spousal impact:- https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se... Source: Immigrant to Canada and Australia. Helped at least 10 people immigrate through provincial nominee and Express Entry programs. Edit:- Your Quebec reply. My broth…

Updated my comment. It's possible for it to hurt, but that's an unusual outcome. The marriage usually helps in Canada even when the spouse is less qualified, unlike Trump's proposal. [Edited to remove inaccurate info about the 40 points] You may also be interested in Quebec's system, which as of August 2 makes children purely positive to the skilled worker points system there, and never removes points for spouses. (T…

Those 40 points come out of your own points if you have a spouse. You score more without a spouse than with a spouse. Trump's proposal is exactly the same as Canada's in principle, except we don't the points being assigned under Trump's program.

Also, under Quebec's new proposal if single you need to score 50 points, and with spouse you need 59 points. Spousal qualifications are absolutely weighted in. This is not the case with other provincial nominee programs though, Alberta, BC or Ontario.

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#33

Post by pille »

extralego wrote: post #19

I am confused about something that seems very basic, and hoping somebody can help me out with this. I have always supported left politics, and I think I understand the basics of supply-and-demand economics. If immigrants come to the US looking for work instead of bringing work, there should be a higher supply of labor, driving the low-end pay-rate down. Given that the low-end rate has gone down significantly througho…

You pass more effective labor protections, and then stop letting employers get around them just because they hired undocumented workers. You prosecute employers for exploiting a vulnerable labor force, instead of charging the people being exploited.

This seems like the truly left position to me. I heard Clinton mention it once in the 3rd debate, but for some reason people focused on other stuff.

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#34

Post by js8 »

extralego wrote: post #19

I am confused about something that seems very basic, and hoping somebody can help me out with this. I have always supported left politics, and I think I understand the basics of supply-and-demand economics. If immigrants come to the US looking for work instead of bringing work, there should be a higher supply of labor, driving the low-end pay-rate down. Given that the low-end rate has gone down significantly througho…

Also leftist but pro-immigration.. (although not American)

I don't have a complete answer but I would point out that some of these immigrants do bring work, eventually. There is a photograph of Sergey Brinn in the article, Steve Jobs is another example.

Also, economically, I am of the opinion that consumption is what drives the modern economy (for better or worse). The production is then typically figured out from that through capitalism. So the additional consumers in economy (immigrants) also add to demand, which acts against the downward pressure on wages.

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#35

Post by te_chris »

extralego wrote: post #19

I am confused about something that seems very basic, and hoping somebody can help me out with this. I have always supported left politics, and I think I understand the basics of supply-and-demand economics. If immigrants come to the US looking for work instead of bringing work, there should be a higher supply of labor, driving the low-end pay-rate down. Given that the low-end rate has gone down significantly througho…

The labour market isn't one market, it's many markets, stratified in all sorts of ways. Hence: bringing in people to do tech jobs (e.g.) for which a local person can't be found will have no effect on working-class wages as, evidently, there's not much competition for that role locally anyway.

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#36

Post by jkaplowitz »

iamshs wrote: post #22
vmlinuz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have direct personal experience of Hong Kong's points-based scheme, the Quality Migrant Admission Scheme - which, it should be noted, is a very niche scheme, largely unknown even amongst expats. The vast majority of skilled immigration comes on a simple sponsored work visa... QMAS gives you a few extra points (5) if you are applying alongside a degree-level-educated spouse, and a few more if you're bringing childre…

The article is absolutely wrong. It states Canadian immigration scores you out of 67 points, that system has been phased out in 2017, before this article was written. Also, Canada absolutely gives weightage to your spouse's age, English/French skills, education etc. up to 40 points.

The system with the 67-point pass mark very much still exists: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=692&...

The Express Entry system introduced in 2015 (not 2017) is just a change to who can apply to the system indicated above and the other systems integrated with Express Entry, rather than being first come first served. It doesn't determine approval. (Though for the provincial nomination programs, some of the other hard parts happen before Express Entry, not after.)

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#37

Post by peterburkimsher »

Immigration policies already set a very high barrier to entry, especially considering that 20% of the US population is functionally illiterate [1].

Immigration is the only hope for me to ever have a family. I was born in Switzerland to British parents who lived in France (in Geneva this is not unusual). Because I'm a citizen by descent, I can't pass on nationality to future children. My girlfriend is Taiwanese, and I'm a conscientious objector who will not take on Taiwanese nationality because of their mandatory conscription.

My life plan revolves around immigration visa requirements. I studied Electronic Systems Engineering at Lancaster University in the UK. That got me a Masters degree from a Washington Accord accredited university, in an English-speaking country (language requirements), in a STEM field (usually on the skill shortage list). Then I used Working Holiday visas to get experience in many countries, before deciding to stay in Taiwan for 4 years to get years of continuous relevant work experience.

Now I have the pre-requisites, I'm trying to find a job, but the majority of job listings require me to already have a visa.

Any leads for jobs would be helpful. I was focusing on New Zealand, Canada, or Australia, but by now I'm getting desperate and I'll take anything.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_illiteracy

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#38

Post by jkaplowitz »

iamshs wrote: post #32
jkaplowitz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Updated my comment. It's possible for it to hurt, but that's an unusual outcome. The marriage usually helps in Canada even when the spouse is less qualified, unlike Trump's proposal. [Edited to remove inaccurate info about the 40 points] You may also be interested in Quebec's system, which as of August 2 makes children purely positive to the skilled worker points system there, and never removes points for spouses. (T…

Those 40 points come out of your own points if you have a spouse. You score more without a spouse than with a spouse. Trump's proposal is exactly the same as Canada's in principle, except we don't the points being assigned under Trump's program. Also, under Quebec's new proposal if single you need to score 50 points, and with spouse you need 59 points. Spousal qualifications are absolutely weighted in. This is not th…

For Quebec's system, the spousal increase to the threshold is not a change from the system before August 2, and as I noted it's a slight impact. Everything is weighed less for the spouse. A less qualified spouse will still not usually hurt. I mentioned August 2 since I don't remember whether children helped in the old system under which I applied; I did remember how spouses affected things, i.e. no significant change.

You're right that I misread the Express Entry table you linked on where the 40 points come from, although I still think the situation would already have to be a borderline case indeed with a very particular set of characteristics for that to matter to the outcome.

In particular, people with a provincial nomination certificate get 600 points just for that, and most CRS draws lately have been something like 441. An entirely unqualified spouse won't hurt that.

And for Federal Skilled Worker Program applicants, the Express Entry table does not determine the outcome, anyway. Just who can apply in which order.

There is a different points grid for FSWP applications after the Invitation to Apply. Yes, the one with a version of the same 67-point pass mark that has long existed. With spouses only able to help, not hurt.

I guess that if you've mostly done provincial nomination programs, and I had only seriously considered FSWP + Quebec for myself, that explains part of our differing perspectives about Canada's systems. :)

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#39

Post by dragonwriter »

extralego wrote: post #19

I am confused about something that seems very basic, and hoping somebody can help me out with this. I have always supported left politics, and I think I understand the basics of supply-and-demand economics. If immigrants come to the US looking for work instead of bringing work, there should be a higher supply of labor, driving the low-end pay-rate down. Given that the low-end rate has gone down significantly througho…

> Given that the low-end rate has gone down significantly throughout the 3 decades that I have been alive, how do we on the left reason that immigration is not a factor?

Because we can point directly to the tax policy changes that are largely responsible, starting with the Reagan-era tax burden shift on to work.

And because we on the left don't deny that immigration is not a factor, but instead that immigration policy effects whether people who enter do it more to work and export the proceeds or to settle and participate and both sides of the ledger, and that present policy has been harmful in that regard. A particular way tl in which this is true is the production of multi-decade waiting lists for family-based immigration from Mexico, which both reduces attachment of lawful immigrants, drives remittances, and produces illegal immigration directly.

> Also related: I thought public resources and the labor market were the most central reasons for nations having immigration policies.

Xenophobia is probably historically the most central reason, but public resources and labor markets are the acceptable modern pretexts. But even when they are the genuine purposes, that doesn't mean policies are actually well adapted to them.

Re: Watch What Happens When You Push Away Skilled Immigrants

#40

Post by jarfil »

extralego wrote: post #19

I am confused about something that seems very basic, and hoping somebody can help me out with this. I have always supported left politics, and I think I understand the basics of supply-and-demand economics. If immigrants come to the US looking for work instead of bringing work, there should be a higher supply of labor, driving the low-end pay-rate down. Given that the low-end rate has gone down significantly througho…

Increased supply doesn't drive prices down on its own. Prices change as the ratio of supply:demand diverges from 1:1.

Immigrants not only bring in labor supply, but also product demand. So even if they aren't investors looking to hire people, the proper question should be whether they bring in more supply than demand, or whether they don't.

I'd say that immigrants who send money abroad, tip the balance towards higher supply, while those who don't, are actually suply-demand neutral (they spend their money where they earn it). So removing citizenship from those born, raised and consuming, is just bullshit.

As for why low-end rates have gone down... check out income inequality, you might find that the top-end rates have gone up by the same amount. Either that, or the economy is tanking (but it isn't).

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