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Why I Don't Buy Organic, and Why You Might Not Want to Either

forbes.com

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Re: Why I Don't Buy Organic, and Why You Might Not Want to Either

#31

Post by ilikehurdles »

srehnborg wrote: post #3
conradk wrote: post #2

From the author's bio: "Since April of 2016 I work part time for the non-profit, CropLife Foundation communicating the benefits of crop protection agents" To read it yourself, go to https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensavage , then click on "Full bio"

Great find. No bias at all... Plenty of articles say that organic is not worth it due to no nutritional value. That is not the reason I've ever heard anybody say they purchase organic fruits and veggies. It's the chemicals. I don't want to eat food that has been sprayed with chemicals over and over again to kill the various predators to that plant. I also don't want those chemicals to be in the water supply or ground…

Honestly, in a blind taste test for most fruits and veggies I generally prefer the flavor of the organic one, and that's enough for me. Maybe it's because of pesticides, maybe it's because of harvesting schedule, maybe it's because of other practices at the organic vs non-organic farm, but the fact is the organic fruits/veggies usually have a noticeably better flavor (not always, especially outside of the dirty dozen). This applies even more so to milk.

Re: Why I Don't Buy Organic, and Why You Might Not Want to Either

#32

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

athenot wrote: post #23

One thing I make sure to not buy organic is couscous. Every time I've gotten organic versions, there have been worms roaming around in it. I'm not sure I agree with the article's conclusions as I generally favor organic in the US, but having reasonable debate is healthy. In Europe I don't bother about organic since the regulations are much stricter regarding crop treatment. In my own vegetable garden I currently have…

USA and EU guidelines allow a certain percentage of grain products sold to contain eggs or larva. This will naturally happen regardless of whether the product is organic or non-organic.

Also, I have never seen visible worms in organic couscous and I buy it within the EU a few times a year. What brand was this that you bought?

Re: Why I Don't Buy Organic, and Why You Might Not Want to Either

#33

Post by aldoushuxley001 »

wnevets wrote: post #30
srehnborg wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great find. No bias at all... Plenty of articles say that organic is not worth it due to no nutritional value. That is not the reason I've ever heard anybody say they purchase organic fruits and veggies. It's the chemicals. I don't want to eat food that has been sprayed with chemicals over and over again to kill the various predators to that plant. I also don't want those chemicals to be in the water supply or ground…

> That is not the reason I've ever heard anybody say they purchase organic fruits and veggies. I've had more than one person tell me that organic foods taste better & they have higher nutritional value. Related but talking to those people about the all natural label is just a lost cause.

A lot of organic foods are different strains than typically sold at grocery stores, and they do tend to taste better simply by virtue of being a strain likely chosen more for its taste than transportability.

Of course though it all depends on where you shop. If you're just comparing two identical apples organic vs non-organic, then you'd almost certainly not taste the difference.

Re: Why I Don't Buy Organic, and Why You Might Not Want to Either

#34

Post by byproxy »

cortesoft wrote: post #11
srehnborg wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great find. No bias at all... Plenty of articles say that organic is not worth it due to no nutritional value. That is not the reason I've ever heard anybody say they purchase organic fruits and veggies. It's the chemicals. I don't want to eat food that has been sprayed with chemicals over and over again to kill the various predators to that plant. I also don't want those chemicals to be in the water supply or ground…

But organic farms still spray 'chemicals' on their fruits and veggies, they just use 'natural' chemicals. Whether a 'chemical' is harmful to humans or not has nothing to do with how it is manufactured, so there is no reason to believe a 'natural chemical' is safer than a synthetic one.

As far as I understand, the synthetic pesticides may actually be safer since they're designed with human consumption in mind and are able to be synthesized in such a way to limit negative effects on the body. Also, they can be designed to eliminate pests that are harmful to crops while doing little damage to other fauna in a way that organic pesticides can't.

I don't have any sources to cite, just my memory from past reading. If I'm off-base, please let me know!

Re: Why I Don't Buy Organic, and Why You Might Not Want to Either

#35

Post by ggg9990 »

wnevets wrote: post #30
srehnborg wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great find. No bias at all... Plenty of articles say that organic is not worth it due to no nutritional value. That is not the reason I've ever heard anybody say they purchase organic fruits and veggies. It's the chemicals. I don't want to eat food that has been sprayed with chemicals over and over again to kill the various predators to that plant. I also don't want those chemicals to be in the water supply or ground…

> That is not the reason I've ever heard anybody say they purchase organic fruits and veggies. I've had more than one person tell me that organic foods taste better & they have higher nutritional value. Related but talking to those people about the all natural label is just a lost cause.

Many times they do taste better. The spoilage rate is higher so only the healthiest foods survive, and also farmers who are expecting a higher price point recognize that they need to also taste good (I.e. there is a market for bad tasting $1/pound conventional vs good tasting $2/pound conventional, not so much of a market for bad tasting $4/pound organic vs $5/pound good tasting organic)

Re: Why I Don't Buy Organic, and Why You Might Not Want to Either

#36

Post by bryanlarsen »

ilikehurdles wrote: post #31
srehnborg wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great find. No bias at all... Plenty of articles say that organic is not worth it due to no nutritional value. That is not the reason I've ever heard anybody say they purchase organic fruits and veggies. It's the chemicals. I don't want to eat food that has been sprayed with chemicals over and over again to kill the various predators to that plant. I also don't want those chemicals to be in the water supply or ground…

Honestly, in a blind taste test for most fruits and veggies I generally prefer the flavor of the organic one, and that's enough for me. Maybe it's because of pesticides, maybe it's because of harvesting schedule, maybe it's because of other practices at the organic vs non-organic farm, but the fact is the organic fruits/veggies usually have a noticeably better flavor (not always, especially outside of the dirty dozen…

What annoys me is that organic is the "premium" selection for fruits & veggies at the grocery store.

If organic wasn't a thing, groceries would find a way to price discriminate, and the most likely way would be to sell tastier varietals raised with practices known to increase taste (like waiting till it's ripe before picking).

So deliberately tastier rather than accidentally tastier.

Re: Why I Don't Buy Organic, and Why You Might Not Want to Either

#37

Post by berbec »

cortesoft wrote: post #11
srehnborg wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great find. No bias at all... Plenty of articles say that organic is not worth it due to no nutritional value. That is not the reason I've ever heard anybody say they purchase organic fruits and veggies. It's the chemicals. I don't want to eat food that has been sprayed with chemicals over and over again to kill the various predators to that plant. I also don't want those chemicals to be in the water supply or ground…

But organic farms still spray 'chemicals' on their fruits and veggies, they just use 'natural' chemicals. Whether a 'chemical' is harmful to humans or not has nothing to do with how it is manufactured, so there is no reason to believe a 'natural chemical' is safer than a synthetic one.

Very good point. As far as I know, Latrotoxin [1], is a fully organic product. It's also much more deadly that most "chemicals" you could name. Hell, Polonium is on the periodic table of elements.

The incredibly successful media campaign waged by the Organic industry should be held up as an example for the rest of the marketing industry. DeBeers should take notes.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latrotoxin

Re: Why I Don't Buy Organic, and Why You Might Not Want to Either

#38

Post by hasbroslasher »

couchand wrote: post #6

The author does a fantastic job arguing against a straw man and distracting the reader. Hey, sometimes conventional farms actually use reasonable techniques! That means they're just as good, right? Hey, look at my cute granddaughter. Those conventional raspberries must be great, right? We can use a little less land to grow most crops if we do it conventionally, that makes it okay, right? Some big bad marketers work f…

This guy completely (intentionally) misses the point to mislead the reader. He does nothing to address actual concerns of organic food enthusiasts like:

1. GMO food is a monopoly owned by a couple of megacorps who claim rights on the seeds of their food and charge farmers "royalties" for growing them, even if they themselves didn't plant them. This is exploitative, ethically dubious, and the result of intense lobby by the genetic engineering industry.

2. Conventional farming usually doesn't give a damn about soil erosion, crop rotation, or any kind of sustainability beyond year-over-year profits. This creates harmful environmental externalities that organic farms have to avoid in order to get their label. While some conventional farms might TRY to do SOME things better, organic foods must do all of them in order to be certified organic.

3. GMOs homogenize crop genetics and provide a vector for a dystopian future of agroblight, where one crop affliction could cause billions of people to starve.

4. The conventional farming industry makes every attempt to lie, mislead, and control the conversation through power and influence (e.g. this exact article). They have an incentive to discredit organic foods as tin-hat woo, to hire scientists to produce whatever kind of study they want, and to inject authors into the public conversation to shape people's perception of the industry. While organic foods companies often resort to equally crappy measures (scare mongering), the end is considerably less bad than the harms of conventional farming as we know it today.

Re: Why I Don't Buy Organic, and Why You Might Not Want to Either

#39

Post by bunderbunder »

srehnborg wrote: post #3
conradk wrote: post #2

From the author's bio: "Since April of 2016 I work part time for the non-profit, CropLife Foundation communicating the benefits of crop protection agents" To read it yourself, go to https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensavage , then click on "Full bio"

Great find. No bias at all... Plenty of articles say that organic is not worth it due to no nutritional value. That is not the reason I've ever heard anybody say they purchase organic fruits and veggies. It's the chemicals. I don't want to eat food that has been sprayed with chemicals over and over again to kill the various predators to that plant. I also don't want those chemicals to be in the water supply or ground…

> I don't want to eat food that has been sprayed with chemicals over and over again to kill the various predators to that plant.

That would be a good reason to consider conventional. Both organic and conventional farms use pesticides. But, by restricting themselves to only pesticides that a program within the USDA's Agricultural Marketing Service has deemed are sufficiently "natural" (not safe, not effective, not environmentally friendly, just natural), they're often limited to using chemicals that are less specific, don't break down as well, or rinse off more easily than the best available options.

Less specific means they're more capable of harming you (and wildlife in general) instead of just the target species. Breaking down less well means they're more likely to remain in the food. And rinsing away more easily means that they're more likely to pollute the soil and groundwater, and also that they may need more frequent application.

The crux of the problem is, the basic idea behind organic standards tacitly bans engineering. And by banning engineering, you ban all engineering, including engineering things to be safer, cleaner, or more effective.

I don't want to get into whether our current standards governing the safety of agrichemicals are perfect or not. What I want to suggest is that the USDA Organic program doesn't effectively improve on that situation. Conventional and organic products both have to meet the same bottom line. By introducing an additional restriction that has nothing to do with safety, though, organic farming hasn't self-imposed a higher minimum standard. It's unnecessarily self-imposed a lower maximum standard.

Re: Why I Don't Buy Organic, and Why You Might Not Want to Either

#40

Post by ddoran »

cryptozeus wrote: post #15

This is the key point Don’t get distracted if author is biased or not...he is making sone goood points. I was not aware of this..”The USDA, which oversees the foods labeled as “Certified Organic”, states quite clearly on its website about its role in organic, that “Our regulations do not address food safety or nutrition.” Foods labelled “Certified Organic” must adhere to certain rules and regulations but aren’t endow…

"However, many consumers believe that the Organic label means ... This is not true."

He is correctly stating that consumers erroneously believe the label means. But the sentence is brilliantly constructed that the final words left me with the sense that it is a statement about organic food, not consumer's misunderstanding of the label:

"... the food has superior nutrition and is safer, especially in regard to pesticide residues. This is not true."

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