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The intolerable rise of perfectionism

theguardian.com

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Re: The intolerable rise of perfectionism

#31

Post by cryoshon »

Koshkin wrote: post #27

In my experience, perfectionism is a reaction to a lack of actual progress or success. Kind of similar to forms of idealism or religious feelings that arise as a result of being powerless in the face of circumstances.

you've made an eminently prescient comment here.

it explains why many scientists are self-denying and perfectionistic: failure is the rule during experimentation, and progress is not guaranteed or even knowable sometimes.

i think that eventually it gets inseparable from the person. the reaction becomes a habit, and then it sticks.

Re: The intolerable rise of perfectionism

#32

Post by stochastic_monk »

pygy_ wrote: post #12
JadeNB wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A perfectionist is someone with more exigence than talent. My dictionary defines 'exigence' (which I had not encountered before) as "an urgent need or demand", and I find that hard to parse. Is either of the parses "… who is more demanding than talented" or (like "grasp exceeds reach") "… whose demands exceed his or her talent" correct? If not, would you mind clarifying?

My bad, "exigence" is a French word whose meaning isn't exactly identical in English. To be exigent means to have a high standard. The verb "exiger" means "to require". English adds an urgency dimension that doesn't exist in French. Many French words built on that template (direct latin root + -ent/-ence suffix) can be used as is in English, but it is not always the case.

To make this point relevant, are you more familiar with French and thereby translating an idea of yours in French to English with a not-quite-perfect cognate?

Without such a connection, the reasoning for stating this is unclear to me. Could you clarify?

Re: The intolerable rise of perfectionism

#33

Post by thinkingemote »

jerf wrote: post #26
s-shellfish wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is a mental health condition these days. Honestly I think the mental health care industry is getting nervous over how complex, diverse and non-trivial it is to understand minds. It's easy for the field to operate on the premise 'but these poor people, we are trying to help them!'. It's at the least, a bit absurd to be hypercritical over every little detail of thinking, acting, behaving, processing, etc and…

One thing that helps is to remember is that by the standards of the industry, you do not have a condition unless it is materially adversely affecting your life. The mental health industry is not concerned about whether you are a perfectionist; they are concerned about whether you are having a material negative impact on your life because of your perfectionism. This is obviously a subset of people who have perfectioni…

Also worth mentioning (is pedantry part of perfectionism?) that in addition to the definition of a disorder as when something is adversely affecting your life, is if it affects other people's lives or the society around you. So some disorders may not affect your own life directly, but they do affect others, or they do affect the society. Societies and cultures change and as so some behaviours become acceptable, this leads their re-classification away from a disorder.

Re: The intolerable rise of perfectionism

#34

Post by dkarl »

electrograv wrote: post #13

This paragraph, which seems to summarize much of this article’s position, seems quite dangerous: > Perfectionism is a personality trait rather than a mental health condition. There is no World Health Organization diagnosis code for perfectionism and it is not listed in the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It can fly under the radar and masquerade as the pursuit…

I agree, I don't like these kinds of articles at all. They observe that something has a bad impact on the lives of a small minority of people, and instead of digging into the factors that make it harmful for those people, they cast a negative pall over the whole thing. You see the same thing with dieting and anorexia. Or, like with your case (happy perfectionism) there are bodybuilders who are extremely strict about their diets and find it to be an immensely fulfilling hobby that provides them a lot of pride and is a springboard for applying discipline in other areas of their life, but other people look at them and assume they are driven by obsession and self-loathing.

Re: The intolerable rise of perfectionism

#35

Post by ekianjo »

s-shellfish wrote: post #17
electrograv wrote: post #13

This paragraph, which seems to summarize much of this article’s position, seems quite dangerous: > Perfectionism is a personality trait rather than a mental health condition. There is no World Health Organization diagnosis code for perfectionism and it is not listed in the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It can fly under the radar and masquerade as the pursuit…

Everything is a mental health condition these days. Honestly I think the mental health care industry is getting nervous over how complex, diverse and non-trivial it is to understand minds. It's easy for the field to operate on the premise 'but these poor people, we are trying to help them!'. It's at the least, a bit absurd to be hypercritical over every little detail of thinking, acting, behaving, processing, etc and…

> Everything is a mental health condition these days.

It's practical because if you have a condition, you can be sold a bunch of products and services you did not need in the first place! Progress.

More seriously, the explosion of conditions not based on anything tangible (pseudo, unvalidated criteria) and supported by health professionals trying to capitalize on it is the real issue. It becomes a serious issue when they convince legislators and health bodies that it's real, using lobbying and other tactics.

Re: The intolerable rise of perfectionism

#36

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

electrograv wrote: post #13

This paragraph, which seems to summarize much of this article’s position, seems quite dangerous: > Perfectionism is a personality trait rather than a mental health condition. There is no World Health Organization diagnosis code for perfectionism and it is not listed in the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It can fly under the radar and masquerade as the pursuit…

I think the author hit on it somewhat in the article, but from personal experience (yes, I know, an anecdote) the dangerous part of perfectionism is when it slides into a crippling fear of failure.

In fact, I think actually calling it this, a fear of failure, vs. calling it "perfectionism" is actually a lot more constructive because it makes it easier for people to agree on the problem. I think most people would agree that having a willingness to try and perhaps fail is a good thing, and a deep fear of this failure is unhealthy and unproductive. Contrast that with "perfectionism", which many people (you) argue is more about the striving to succeed and do better, and most people I think would agree that is a good thing.

Re: The intolerable rise of perfectionism

#37

Post by s-shellfish »

thinkingemote wrote: post #33
jerf wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that helps is to remember is that by the standards of the industry, you do not have a condition unless it is materially adversely affecting your life. The mental health industry is not concerned about whether you are a perfectionist; they are concerned about whether you are having a material negative impact on your life because of your perfectionism. This is obviously a subset of people who have perfectioni…

Also worth mentioning (is pedantry part of perfectionism?) that in addition to the definition of a disorder as when something is adversely affecting your life, is if it affects other people's lives or the society around you. So some disorders may not affect your own life directly, but they do affect others, or they do affect the society. Societies and cultures change and as so some behaviours become acceptable, this…

I would definitely say pedantry is a part of perfectionism. Attention to detail.

Attention to detail is only a problem when it's labeled a problem.

Re: The intolerable rise of perfectionism

#38

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

tw1010 wrote: post #5

I tend to become much better at things a lot quicker if I just ingest a lot of the stuff (books, code, etc) and then spit out a mountain of it, instead of obsessing over making each and every thing I produce perfect. Perfect isn't even an unchanging state. The better you are, the higher your standards become.

I recall reading a study previously (I can't find it at the moment) on creativity. The two groups were given two tasks in an art class. First group was told they would be graded on the sheer volume of output, while the other was told they would be graded on the most creative thing they could produce (I'm leaving out a ton of detail, and I can't remember what kind of art class it was).

The conclusion of the study was that the first group, who was just focused on volume of output, actually produced more creative works than the group specifically focused on "creativity".

Re: The intolerable rise of perfectionism

#39

Post by pygy_ »

stochastic_monk wrote: post #32
pygy_ wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My bad, "exigence" is a French word whose meaning isn't exactly identical in English. To be exigent means to have a high standard. The verb "exiger" means "to require". English adds an urgency dimension that doesn't exist in French. Many French words built on that template (direct latin root + -ent/-ence suffix) can be used as is in English, but it is not always the case.

To make this point relevant, are you more familiar with French and thereby translating an idea of yours in French to English with a not-quite-perfect cognate? Without such a connection, the reasoning for stating this is unclear to me. Could you clarify?

I'm a native French speaker, fluently thinking in English.

There's a vast pool of vocabulary that is common to both languages, from which I draw words indiscriminately (Latin roots and the same formula to derive verbs/nouns/adjectives, with minor variations for each langage (e.g. add "-ate" for verbs in Englsih and "-er" in French)). Some of these are so-called "false friends", with different meanings in both languages.

I have a spidey sense that works most of the time in the English => French direction (e.g. "consistent"), less so in the other.

Re: The intolerable rise of perfectionism

#40

Post by jamestanderson »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #38
tw1010 wrote: post #5

I tend to become much better at things a lot quicker if I just ingest a lot of the stuff (books, code, etc) and then spit out a mountain of it, instead of obsessing over making each and every thing I produce perfect. Perfect isn't even an unchanging state. The better you are, the higher your standards become.

I recall reading a study previously (I can't find it at the moment) on creativity. The two groups were given two tasks in an art class. First group was told they would be graded on the sheer volume of output, while the other was told they would be graded on the most creative thing they could produce (I'm leaving out a ton of detail, and I can't remember what kind of art class it was). The conclusion of the study was…

You got it right but here's a link[1] with that original story and also some commentary on how this all relates to software development.

[1] https://blog.codinghorror.com/quantity-always-trumps-quality...

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