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Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#31

Post by rootw0rm »

claudiawerner wrote: post #23
vivafrance wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only because of cultural biases. If women were treated the same as men throughout childhood you'd see equal representation.

This is the wrong way to go about things; I'm a very strong beleiver in the principle of equality, that is, the equality in all social dealings of men and women, between races, abled and disabled, those of different nationalities, of different professions etc. But it must be stressed that asserting people have the same capabilities isn't the right way to go about it. Your principle will fail the second that we get to…

You have some thoughtful and intelligent replies here on HN, thank you.

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#32

Post by ghufran_syed »

It’s a shame they didn’t have an arm of the study looking at female-only units. As it is, they are comparing men-only with mixed units, so there is no way to determine how much of the effect is due to being in a mixed vs single gender unit. I recall in England that women did better academically in single-sex schools than they did in mixed schools. It’s conceivable the same might (or might not) be true here.

Of course, they also need to ensure equivalent levels of fitness and experience, which doesn’t seem to have been the case here.

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#33

Post by Tomminn »

naasking wrote: post #29
lainga wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was told in high school that the opposite was true, because of childbirth.

It's not clear how people can die from pain itself in childbirth, directly or indirectly, so I don't see how that could be selected for. People can die indirectly from pain on the battlefield or while hunting, because it leaves you vulnerable to being killed while you're distracted by it. So there's definitely an adaptive advantage for men to develop pain resistance.

People die from pain-induced shock [1] all the time. I think the essential mechanism is that pain changes your heart rate and blood pressure. Small doses increase both, but large doses decrease both. A large enough dose can make your heart rate and blood pressure drop enough to cause shock.

[1] https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Neurogenic_shock

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#34

Post by claudiawerner »

rootw0rm wrote: post #31
claudiawerner wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the wrong way to go about things; I'm a very strong beleiver in the principle of equality, that is, the equality in all social dealings of men and women, between races, abled and disabled, those of different nationalities, of different professions etc. But it must be stressed that asserting people have the same capabilities isn't the right way to go about it. Your principle will fail the second that we get to…

You have some thoughtful and intelligent replies here on HN, thank you.

I'm glad you think so, thanks.

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#35

Post by whb07 »

ghufran_syed wrote: post #32

It’s a shame they didn’t have an arm of the study looking at female-only units. As it is, they are comparing men-only with mixed units, so there is no way to determine how much of the effect is due to being in a mixed vs single gender unit. I recall in England that women did better academically in single-sex schools than they did in mixed schools. It’s conceivable the same might (or might not) be true here. Of course…

There wouldn’t be a critical number of women required to create a standard Marine rifle platoon.

You’re essentially talking of 3 squads of 12+ people/squad. Never mind a supporting platoon of weapons(machine guns/mortars/assault) which is 40+ members.

So on a good day you’re talking of maybe 50 seriously jacked women (just to compare to an average male) that has to choose to become part of the infantry.

Do you know how you hear “there are no devs anywhere! Lol zomg “ well, this actually applies to the military in general. Never mind finding super jacked women who are choosing to go to the military, then pick the infantry, then pick the Marines.

So out of all that, as a young woman going to the military,why would I go do infantry and be miserable in water/desert, no showers for weeks on end, carrying heavy equipment for miles.... or I could get the same pay and be promoted faster as a clerk/accounting/cook/driver.

Israel is able to have some women sniper platoons (who are pretty hot) because they require mandatory service.

Source: Marine and yes I’ve seen the female IDF

Edit: English

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#36

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

dahdum wrote: post #24
vivafrance wrote: post #2

This study was sexist and is perpetuating gender stereotypes which have existed in the male-dominated culture for the last few thousand years. Men and women are capable of performing the exact same tasks equally well. Any hiring should treat genders exactly equal.

Not sure if you are a die hard social constructivist or just trolling, but your last point was true. Each gender should have the same opportunity.

Poe’s Law is like a litmus test for ideologies.

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#37

Post by eykanspelgud »

hamitron wrote: post #20

> “It has been scientifically proven that overall physical fitness — not gender — correlates to injury,” I think the takeaway should be how do we reduce injury with respect to different body types

I disagree.

I see it more as natural selection. Training is usually what a soldier might have to go through in real combat. I don't think accommodating different body types will be useful when the war time environment selects for a particular fit, and those not adapted to it will not survive, or worse - be a burden to the lives of others.

Sure, we can do things to reduce injury for people of different body types, but it would make more sense to me to select for those who already have a particular fitness.

when I say fit, I mean fit to the environment, not necessarily physical fitness.

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#38

Post by kaybe »

ectospheno wrote: post #8
vivafrance wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only because of cultural biases. If women were treated the same as men throughout childhood you'd see equal representation.

I'll give you that a man and a woman of the same physical size can each generally perform the same physical tasks. I'll also agree they should be paid the same. However, saying the average sized woman can perform the same physical tasks as the average sized man is easily shown to be false using simple physics.

I also give you the observation that some men use far more force than necessary for some tasks and then conclude that someone weaker cannot do them.

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#40

Post by sa46 »

hamitron wrote: post #20

> “It has been scientifically proven that overall physical fitness — not gender — correlates to injury,” I think the takeaway should be how do we reduce injury with respect to different body types

I'd be curious to read that study as it seems to contradict the article. I didn't see it sourced in the article.
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