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Michael Stonebraker: Why Enterprises Are Uninterested in NoSQL?

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Re: Michael Stonebraker: Why Enterprises Are Uninterested in NoSQL?

#31
I think a lot of the comments here (not all) display a relative naivete about what is meant by ACID and why the physical / logical separation of SQL is vital to the point about ad hoc queries.

It's ironic because some of those comments complain about enterprise types not knowing about NoSQL while, at the same time, the comment makers seem to not (really) know about SQL RDBMS systems.

Re: Michael Stonebraker: Why Enterprises Are Uninterested in NoSQL?

#32
post #8
post #6

It's a funny thing. Very powerful and scalable parallel SQL-based RDBMS systems have been commercially available for a long time. Also, I think that scalability concerns about ACID are exaggerated: ACID doesn't reach Facebook or Amazon scale, but there's only 5,000 or so sites that are that big. A converse question to the one they ask is, "Why aren't web developers interested in Commercial Parallel RDBMS" and I think…

> pgsql as going nowhere Eh?! They just released a major update with long-awaited functionality!

pgsql has a badly nonstandard type system (lots of SQL queries that work in Oracle & mysql don't work in pgsql.) I've still got a long list of queries that run 100x faster in mysql than pgsql

Re: Michael Stonebraker: Why Enterprises Are Uninterested in NoSQL?

#33

Correct me if I'm wrong. I thought some of the "enterprises" have already using NoSQL as part of their data warehousing strategy? To my knowledge (which might be wrong), there are companies out there such as Greenplum, Teradata, Netteza, Oracle Exadata that specialize in data-warehousing solution, have built their own DBMS based on column-oriented.

I am not positive myself, but I believe that Greenplum and/or Netteza are built on top of Postgres (highly customized) DB engines to ensure their transactional integrity across their clustered servers.

Re: Michael Stonebraker: Why Enterprises Are Uninterested in NoSQL?

#34
I dont think it is about the technology at all. It is more about social factors. Enterprises often shy away from being on the leading edge of anything. There is very limited upside and big downside. I'm willing to bet that once the NoSQL space shakes down with some big winners, some defacto standards, enterprises will be adopting it just the same.

Enterprises also need to be sold to. I don't see any startup having a sales team pushing NoSQL solutions inside the enterprise (Amazon's SimpleDB and my own team's Windows Azure Tables might be exceptions).

Re: Michael Stonebraker: Why Enterprises Are Uninterested in NoSQL?

#35
post #8
post #6

It's a funny thing. Very powerful and scalable parallel SQL-based RDBMS systems have been commercially available for a long time. Also, I think that scalability concerns about ACID are exaggerated: ACID doesn't reach Facebook or Amazon scale, but there's only 5,000 or so sites that are that big. A converse question to the one they ask is, "Why aren't web developers interested in Commercial Parallel RDBMS" and I think…

> pgsql as going nowhere Eh?! They just released a major update with long-awaited functionality!

Did the new functionality include reliable replication?

Re: Michael Stonebraker: Why Enterprises Are Uninterested in NoSQL?

#36
post #17

Because NoSQL systems are a tool, enterprises have invested heavily in workforces and capital that are centered around SQL. It's relatively easy as an enterprise dev to get a SQL database that is going to be backed up and restored by their admins. It's ok to lose the odd 'Like' it's not ok to lose the odd deposit. Since enterprise businesses are generally not built on a freemium/advertising model, they have the resou…

I'm not sure I agree with the definitions of enterprise being implied in the comments here.

I'm at a giant company all of you have heard of and we have the sql server visual studio enterprisey people that the article mentions, and they fit the articles description to a T. I also work directly on analytics for our company, and good friend of mine does analytics for another giant corporation nearby that all of you have also heard of.

I believe our companies would be considered "enterprise", yet neither of us work at banks, neither of us work with ecommerce or supply chains for physical commodities, and neither of us are at tech companies. We both have groups heavily invested in sql, yet it is the wrong solution for both of us. Our enterprisey people had never heard of NOSQL or things like hadoop. Fortunately we're coming around and are starting to move things to hadoop, but the article matches my personal experience, and ACID is a requirement for the analytics we do. Our analytics are fuzzy by nature, yet we've been stuck in the sql enterprise mindset for years.

Re: Michael Stonebraker: Why Enterprises Are Uninterested in NoSQL?

#37
post #19

Trivial example of what people need to know in enterprises: “Tell me whether pet rocks are selling better than Barbie dolls in the south?” What people really need to know: I already know from existing reporting that 984 orders (18% of our backlog) are already past due. For those 984 orders: - How many are for one item and how many are for multiples? - Do we own what we owe those customers? - If we do own it, is it in…

SQL is actually quite often a bad way to try to answer those questions, too! See http://philip.greenspun.com/wtr/data-warehousing.html for an entertaining explanation.

I believe MongoDB in particular can be a fairly good solution to build datawarehouses (I'm starting to use it for reporting systems).

One great point about MongoDB is that it makes the ETL process a lot easier (you don't have to prepare tables with the right schema and it supports large amounts of data).

I wouldn't be surprised to see some NoSQL solutions get wider adoption in the enterprise, either alone or with tools that build upon them.

As for the article: it's pure linkbait in my opinion!

Re: Michael Stonebraker: Why Enterprises Are Uninterested in NoSQL?

#38
Hierarchical OLAP databases applications are pretty widely used in enterprises and they often look nothing like an SQL database to users (sure something like Oracle Hyperion may have a relational database buried under there somewhere but the exposed data model sure isn't relational and things like Essbase are pretty similar but don't have any underlying SQL).

Re: Michael Stonebraker: Why Enterprises Are Uninterested in NoSQL?

#39

Correct me if I'm wrong. I thought some of the "enterprises" have already using NoSQL as part of their data warehousing strategy? To my knowledge (which might be wrong), there are companies out there such as Greenplum, Teradata, Netteza, Oracle Exadata that specialize in data-warehousing solution, have built their own DBMS based on column-oriented.

Column or row-oriented really has nothing to do NoSQL or not. I'd argue NoSQL is a bad name, and as pointed out by previous commenters, many that are involved in the argument don't even understand ACID/SQL/relational algebra.
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