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How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

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Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#31

Post by adrianratnapala »

aphextron wrote: post #16

Have you eaten in at a take out place lately? It's literally nothing but ageing, disheveled looking people who could barely operate a smartphone running in and out desperately, working either Uber Eats, Doordash, etc. stacking orders, getting stressed out over maybe making $3. It's the most depressing fucking thing I have ever seen. Maybe there's an argument to be made that these people are better off than they would…

> But I'm not so sure it's that simple.

At this point I was expecting an explanation of how an similar number of low-skilled people would have jobs if these services didn't exist.

Instead you give the unexplained assertion

> You have this zero sum game ...

Which game is it? Who are the players? What is zero-sum about it?

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#32

Post by aninteger »

tetromino_ wrote: post #23
marsrover wrote: post #6

> On average, it estimated they were making $10.75 per hour in the Houston area, $8.77 per hour in Detroit, and $13.17 in Denver, which was slightly less than Walmart’s average full-time hourly rate in 2016 I'm not saying this is ok, but I think there are also more intangible things that come into play here. Working for Uber gives you the freedom to work when you want. You don't have to call in sick or find someone t…

The allure of gig jobs is the ability to turn an arbitrary number of your unproductive hours and an idle car into money. Sometimes you really need that money. I know some people who landed in hard situations where their usual day job would not be enough to cover rent + food + bills. But working the day job and spending 5-6 nights a week driving Uber would be enough. Granted: that's at the expense of not sleeping, not…

This is very sad. The last thing someone wants is a tired, exhausted driver driving them around.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#33

Post by roenxi »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #15

This really needs reposted: Uber is an Old Scam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGwZcR0q6VE Seriously, watch the video. Professor Richard D Wolff. Long story short, when taxis first came out, we saw the following: unsafe everything, assaults, kidnappings (pay more or you get dropped in $bad_location), wrecks and injuries and no insurance. The result of that was regulation, which improved conditions for riders and dr…

The gentleman in the video has a couple of good points (and it is likely that Uber will eventually get regulated). That being said, the premise here seems to be confused on a number of issues.

+ "Unsafe everything, assaults [and] kidnappings" are in fact already illegal. More regulation will not make them more illegal. Claiming we need a taxicab commission to enforce basic laws is a non-sequitur of breathtaking scope.

+ There was a vibe that Uber will compromise the customer experience to make more money. This is nonsense, uber is operating in a cut-throat environment where any cost savings will be passed directly to consumers who are getting what they pay for. As one questioner pointed out at the end, Uber isn't actually making a profit. Any cuts in quality are being passed on to the customer in reduced fares.

+ Insufficient insurance. This one is one that is up for debate; but the message of 'insurance good, profit bad' is probably oversimplifying the issue and likely pushing an outcome where everyone has to pay more for transport without a proportional improvement in outcomes. The speaker might feel better about that, but I doubt the Uber passengers would.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#34

Post by dredmorbius »

mikece wrote: post #3

On the one hand my first impulse is to ask “What’s the supply-side version of caveat emptor ?” but if companies like Uber are hiding the true pay of their IRS-1099 “gig workers” then I have to wonder if they aren’t running afoul of disclosure or fair labor laws as well.

What’s the supple-side version of caveat emptor?

How do you mean?

"Employer beware" would be cave dico. Provider beware, provisor cave.

Though it's not clear what dynamic you're pointing to.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#35

Post by jjoske »

vertexFarm wrote: post #28
peterwwillis wrote: post #8

The gig economy is literally a product of a lack of economic security. As I've mentioned before, if suddenly people had enough money or assistance that they didn't need to gig to make ends meet, businesses like Uber and Lyft would have no more "independent contractors". They'd probably fold or have to raise prices above that of Taxis.

It's absolutely a desperation career. Those always exist somewhere in any economy, and arguably there should be options available for desperate people, but the sheer volume of them is getting sad. It's like the US has a very poor, developing country double-exposed over an insanely wealthy and advanced one, both occupying the same territory. I'm not a historian but it strikes me as very strange and somewhat new to the…

Actually I suspect this has been somewhat the norm through out history, and the last 50-100 years have been some what odd.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#36

Post by toomanybeersies »

peterwwillis wrote: post #8

The gig economy is literally a product of a lack of economic security. As I've mentioned before, if suddenly people had enough money or assistance that they didn't need to gig to make ends meet, businesses like Uber and Lyft would have no more "independent contractors". They'd probably fold or have to raise prices above that of Taxis.

Maybe it's a different situation in other countries, but in New Zealand, a lot of uber drivers are actually former taxi drivers. They (at least used to) make more money driving for Uber than driving a taxi.

Taxis have always been a gig economy, it's just that you used to have a big sticker on the side of your car. Taxi drivers have never been paid a wage.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#37

Post by knuththetruth »

vertexFarm wrote: post #28
peterwwillis wrote: post #8

The gig economy is literally a product of a lack of economic security. As I've mentioned before, if suddenly people had enough money or assistance that they didn't need to gig to make ends meet, businesses like Uber and Lyft would have no more "independent contractors". They'd probably fold or have to raise prices above that of Taxis.

It's absolutely a desperation career. Those always exist somewhere in any economy, and arguably there should be options available for desperate people, but the sheer volume of them is getting sad. It's like the US has a very poor, developing country double-exposed over an insanely wealthy and advanced one, both occupying the same territory. I'm not a historian but it strikes me as very strange and somewhat new to the…

>I'm not a historian but it strikes me as very strange and somewhat new to the world.

It’s similar to the collapse of the Soviet Union, with the opioid crisis taking the place of people drinking themselves to death.

You also see the same high-levels of corruption, especially in tech, where former Obama officials are given high-level jobs at the big firms or gig unicorns. Hell, even Obama himself just got a Netflix deal.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#38

Post by toastermoster »

aphextron wrote: post #16

Have you eaten in at a take out place lately? It's literally nothing but ageing, disheveled looking people who could barely operate a smartphone running in and out desperately, working either Uber Eats, Doordash, etc. stacking orders, getting stressed out over maybe making $3. It's the most depressing fucking thing I have ever seen. Maybe there's an argument to be made that these people are better off than they would…

The wait staff at the restaurants usually don't get tipped on those kinds of orders either. And in most of the US the wait staff are only making $2.13 an hour or something like that.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#39

Post by bryanlarsen »

peterwwillis wrote: post #8

The gig economy is literally a product of a lack of economic security. As I've mentioned before, if suddenly people had enough money or assistance that they didn't need to gig to make ends meet, businesses like Uber and Lyft would have no more "independent contractors". They'd probably fold or have to raise prices above that of Taxis.

It should be the other away around. The gig economy should only be for people that have economic security. If you've got food & rent covered some other way but want some extra cash for luxuries, it's nice to have the option to pick up a few gigs.

Much of the marketing for Uber drivers implies this fantasy.

Maybe BI will make this fantasy a reality.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#40

Post by toomanybeersies »

marsrover wrote: post #6

> On average, it estimated they were making $10.75 per hour in the Houston area, $8.77 per hour in Detroit, and $13.17 in Denver, which was slightly less than Walmart’s average full-time hourly rate in 2016 I'm not saying this is ok, but I think there are also more intangible things that come into play here. Working for Uber gives you the freedom to work when you want. You don't have to call in sick or find someone t…

> You don't have to call in sick

And in countries that have sick leave, it means that you don't get paid for your day off sick.

You also don't have a minimum wage as a contractor, because when you're not driving a passenger, you're not "working". For countries with strong labour laws like Australia, it's a massive erosion of workers rights. Most Uber Eats drivers and riders are also making less than minimum wage for the hours they are working. Plus there are no penalty rates for working nights, weekends, or public holidays.

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