Live data from Hacker News

Mozilla to remove “meritocracy” from governance docs because it's “problematic”

groups.google.com

31–40 of 152 posts

Re: Mozilla to remove “meritocracy” from governance docs because it's “problematic”

#31
post #12

I think this bit from the email is the most important: > To sum up: > -Declaring Mozilla to be a de facto “meritocracy” fails to acknowledge evident bias in representation in the project. > -The word “meritocracy” itself has become a bone of contention which is unhelpful to us. > -Meritocractic principles remain highly desirable and should be explicit. > -We should also acknowledge the importance of measures we take…

> -Declaring Mozilla to be a de facto “meritocracy” fails to acknowledge evident bias in representation in the project.

I don't see the connection; it is a well established fact that no two people have the same opportunities, regardless of country. In one country you might see large differences between skin colours, in another the prime opportunity differentiator is parental income and so forth.

Therefore you would expect that differences in opportunity (which are infinitely greater than innate differences in ability relevant to software engineering between the various popular subdivisions of humanity [1]) more or less transfer directly to the composition of meritocratic organisations.

If that statement is meant to imply that an actual meritocratic organisation would closely track the composition of the general populace, then I'd say that it fails to acknowledge bias in society, because then the assumption backing the statement is society already providing equal opportunities, which we know is patently false.

[1] Just because something is statistically significant does not mean it's relevant; effect magnitude must always be considered.

Re: Mozilla to remove “meritocracy” from governance docs because it's “problematic”

#32

Can someone explain how striving for meritocracy stems from assumption of equal opportunity? I want projects I am part of or benefit from to be guided by meritocracy. It means some people have better chances to contribute or gain influence there than others. Those are more competent people who often got better opportunities through life. I want that because I care about those projects. I don't see how chances not bei…

Overfitting.

Re: Mozilla to remove “meritocracy” from governance docs because it's “problematic”

#33
post #12

I think this bit from the email is the most important: > To sum up: > -Declaring Mozilla to be a de facto “meritocracy” fails to acknowledge evident bias in representation in the project. > -The word “meritocracy” itself has become a bone of contention which is unhelpful to us. > -Meritocractic principles remain highly desirable and should be explicit. > -We should also acknowledge the importance of measures we take…

> The real issue here is that some people get really upset by the word "meritocracy".

Clearly you have never dealt with a white man who is better off than certain women, or people from ethnic minorities, and thinks it's because his being white/male makes him inherently better and invokes "meritocracy" all the freaking time.

I have. And I'm a half-Asian male - I can't imagine what it's like to deal with that jerk if I were a woman or an ethnic minority he didn't consider inherently intelligent (yes, really - he was actually surprised I was upset at the things he said because he wasn't talking about me, as if that was the reason for me to disagree with him).

When the word "meritocracy" is used to structurally shut down debates of sexism and racism, it is no longer about meritocracy.

Re: Mozilla to remove “meritocracy” from governance docs because it's “problematic”

#34
As someone who comes from a minority group, I absolutely want to be judged on the technical merit of my contributions and not my skin color, gender or genetic background.

Implying that people who aren't white males can't succeed in a meritocratic environment is racist and condescending. I don't see how this helps diversity one bit.

Re: Mozilla to remove “meritocracy” from governance docs because it's “problematic”

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Words are important. Diversity is important. Changing words like "meritocracy" does not improve diversity. It is the illusion of diversity, a feel-good opportunity for well-intentioned bystanders. The true intent is for a small group of highly politically motivated people to gain more control. The governance documents are about control and changing those documents means a shift in control. The movement we are seeing…

you sound like a conspiracy theorist. it is changing an inappropriate word, not shifting control over the entire company Mozilla. i doubt you care about diversity or improving the quality of the open source project

Really? People who interpret 'meritocracy' in a narrow, little known historical context, as being a conspiracy against miniorities, rather than it's currently accepted form, sound like conspiracy theorists.

Re: Mozilla to remove “meritocracy” from governance docs because it's “problematic”

#36
Interesting, just when the "post-meritocracy" manifesto was published, Mozilla changes sides on meritocracy :

https://postmeritocracy.org/

authored by Coraline Ada Ehmke who is already well known for their activism in IT and open source with the contributor convenant https://www.contributor-covenant.org/ . Coincidence? or consequence?

Re: Mozilla to remove “meritocracy” from governance docs because it's “problematic”

#37

Can someone explain how striving for meritocracy stems from assumption of equal opportunity? I want projects I am part of or benefit from to be guided by meritocracy. It means some people have better chances to contribute or gain influence there than others. Those are more competent people who often got better opportunities through life. I want that because I care about those projects. I don't see how chances not bei…

I think the concept is "a purely-meritocratic system cannot be achieved without equal opportunity". This is because one's contribution to governance is proportional to their merit and to their opportunity to express this merit.

For a concrete example, a programmer in Seattle has much higher opportunities than the same programmer in rural Burundi, so he can put the same effort into much more work, and ultimately be much more relevant in supposedly meritocratic governance.

However, the original post is not concerned with opportunity due to geographic location or access to technology, but rather to a bias where code submitted by programmers with a feminine username and profile picture is approved less often than average. Note that the linked study does not refer to Mozilla explicitly, though.

Re: Mozilla to remove “meritocracy” from governance docs because it's “problematic”

#38
post #24

Why exactly do people contend that meritocracy somehow clashes with diversity? The implications being made by suggesting the two be mutually exclusive are frightening.

They clash. You either have a meritocracy or diversity quotas; you either choose people because they’re competent or because they are of a certain sex/race.

Re: Mozilla to remove “meritocracy” from governance docs because it's “problematic”

#39

Can someone explain how striving for meritocracy stems from assumption of equal opportunity? I want projects I am part of or benefit from to be guided by meritocracy. It means some people have better chances to contribute or gain influence there than others. Those are more competent people who often got better opportunities through life. I want that because I care about those projects. I don't see how chances not bei…

The movement pushing this worldview do not believe oppressed groups can ever meaningful participate in society without their help.

They advance their 'help' to these groups and rely on the cooperation of people who want 'do the right thing' when they go about forcing their agenda on everyone.

It is about cementing their own personal and political power, it does little to actually improve diversity, and has nothing to do with code.

They are radical authoritarian thugs who come bearing gifts wrapped in feel-good language.

You can see how quickly this movement turns on members of groups they believe to be marginalized who reject their help.

They also inevitably turn against even moderates who are just trying to the right thing.

Funny enough the first reply to this in the listserv is calling out use of politically incorrect language in the proposal.

Re: Mozilla to remove “meritocracy” from governance docs because it's “problematic”

#40
Why is time spent on things that do not matter? If you want to contribute to Open Source project the pull request literally doesn't care whether your reproductive organs are inside or outside of you (or if they even exist at all) just write some code.

People who have nothing better to do than cry about use of this kind of words (and language in general) probably do not contribute to the project in net positive manner.

Post reply on HN