Live data from Hacker News

Gentrification's Price: S.F. Moves: Yuppies In, the Poor Out (1985)

articles.latimes.com

31–40 of 77 posts

Re: Gentrification's Price: S.F. Moves: Yuppies In, the Poor Out (1985)

#31
post #21

I often wonder about how sustainable SF’s growth is. Between the issues with housing, rent control, NIMBYism, and poor infrastructure, there has to be a price tag at which this can’t continue. I live in the city, and the quality of living here is terrible compared to other cities. The only thing SF has going for it is the people, but sooner or later the right social pressures could cause a mass exodus, and I wonder w…

The entire town literally smells like crap. The people are alright. No idea why anyone would want to live there.

The best thing about the gentrication war is all the trustfund liberal arts crowds shaming tech workers for trying to make a living.

Re: Gentrification's Price: S.F. Moves: Yuppies In, the Poor Out (1985)

#32
Assuming that the housing supply is finite, the poorest person living in a city is also displacing a different potential resident, just as much as a medium income person, right? Yet gentrification is always portrayed as the "richer" people trampling on poor people. Go figure.

Re: Gentrification's Price: S.F. Moves: Yuppies In, the Poor Out (1985)

#33
post #21

I often wonder about how sustainable SF’s growth is. Between the issues with housing, rent control, NIMBYism, and poor infrastructure, there has to be a price tag at which this can’t continue. I live in the city, and the quality of living here is terrible compared to other cities. The only thing SF has going for it is the people, but sooner or later the right social pressures could cause a mass exodus, and I wonder w…

> but sooner or later the right social pressures could cause a mass exodus

Why would that be the case, rather than the social pressures (it sucks to try to live here) reaching a dynamic equilibrium with the economic forces (companies and people are more productive here and will compensate you well for the extra trouble)?

I can only think of two reasons for a sudden 'mass exodus':

1. People to 'suddenly realize' that they are getting a bad deal; but isn't it pretty much public knowledge that housing in the Bay Area sucks, and will continue to suck?

2. Outside factors suddenly slow down tech hiring (recession, tech crisis)

Re: Gentrification's Price: S.F. Moves: Yuppies In, the Poor Out (1985)

#34

I don't see what is so wrong with gentrification. As the economy expands and people become more prosperous, it restores blighted parts of the city to their full potential. I also think that rent control is disrespectful to the rights of the property owner. Other than making sure that there is no discrimination, and that properties aren't fire traps, government should get out of the way.

Let's scale up your example: why should citizens of a country have any special rights over immigrants? One can argue that immigration "restores blighted parts" of the country "to its full potential". I doubt you'd make that argument, though.

> One can argue that immigration "restores blighted parts" of the country "to its full potential".

Only if you’re talking about well-to-do immigrants, and most of the time that term is reserved for the “undocumented” variety of immigrant, not generally known for bringing a flood of money into an area like Valley techies do.

Your point is actually relevant though, unchecked immigration does indeed have an affect on housing prices, just not quite as dramatically as a horde of tech geeks does.

Re: Gentrification's Price: S.F. Moves: Yuppies In, the Poor Out (1985)

#35

I don't see what is so wrong with gentrification. As the economy expands and people become more prosperous, it restores blighted parts of the city to their full potential. I also think that rent control is disrespectful to the rights of the property owner. Other than making sure that there is no discrimination, and that properties aren't fire traps, government should get out of the way.

> rent control is disrespectful to the rights of the property owner. Is there an inherent right of way for property owners over renters on the residential moral crossroads? If you’ve grown up in a neighbourhood, raised your own kids in that neighbourhood, spent time in and on the neighbourhood, don’t you deserve some respect? People without the fiscal wherewithal (nor social impetus) to buy, but who spent effort safe…

> Is there an inherent right of way for property owners over renters on the residential moral crossroads?

No, but rent control is counterproductive and hurts many of the people it purports to help. What are its effects?

It encourages landlords to neglect properties. As one socialist economist quipped, "In many cases rent control appears to be the most efficient technique presently known to destroy a city—except for bombing." After World War II, Paris enacted rent control leading to the loss of tens of thousands of existing units. When rent control was banned in Cambridge, MA, the valuation of never-controlled properties rose more rapidly than previously rent controlled properties. This implies that the never-controlled properties were better maintained.

It accrues financial gains to people who tend to be older and more affluent. People with lucrative employment are more able to stay in place for longer. They can ride out the downturns.

It limits supply. This increases median rents for newly available units. It discourages the construction of new units.

It encourages over consumption. Empty nesters don't downsize. This makes it harder for young families to find housing. SF has the lowest portion of children of any major American city.

It privatizes a public problem.

As far as solving a housing crisis goes, rent control is about as helpful as arson.

Re: Gentrification's Price: S.F. Moves: Yuppies In, the Poor Out (1985)

#36
post #11

I don't see what is so wrong with gentrification. As the economy expands and people become more prosperous, it restores blighted parts of the city to their full potential. I also think that rent control is disrespectful to the rights of the property owner. Other than making sure that there is no discrimination, and that properties aren't fire traps, government should get out of the way.

The wealth-ification of a neighborhood isn't per se bad. It would be fantastic if people living in a neighborhood became wealthier through some set of circumstances (economic recovery etc). What you typically see is long-time neighborhood residents being displaced by wealthier newcomers. In a poor neighborhood, this means that people who are already vulnerable, especially those that are renting also have to cope with…

I think what you say is true for long term renters but the complete opposite for long term homeowners.

There's rent control, Proposition 13, and fixed rate mortgages. Those greatly help long time homeowner.

Homeowners lock in low interest rates and fixed monthly payments. If inflation hits you're still paying the same. Possibly 1/5th the amount that your neighbor might be paying if you've had your house for a while.

With Proposition 13 your property tax won't go up more than 2% despite double digital home price inflation year after year in the bay area.

The amount of equity generated each year is often more than peoples' entire salaries.

Re: Gentrification's Price: S.F. Moves: Yuppies In, the Poor Out (1985)

#37
post #24

If you want to see the latest in the gentrification war, check out the San Francisco subreddit. On the one hand, it’s everyone complaining about the nuisance of the on demand scooters; on the other, it’s people complaining about the needles and human feces. It may have been about poor vs yuppie in 1985, but it’s a culture war now.

Wow...

> Last week I saw a similar report of a man filling up syringes with blood and throwing them at people walking by

https://www.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/8hj7j7/man_ju...

Re: Gentrification's Price: S.F. Moves: Yuppies In, the Poor Out (1985)

#38

Assuming that the housing supply is finite, the poorest person living in a city is also displacing a different potential resident, just as much as a medium income person, right? Yet gentrification is always portrayed as the "richer" people trampling on poor people. Go figure.

A poor person does not have the means to displace someone. If you can't afford to rent or buy a home you aren't displacing anyone. A wealthier person does have that ability.

Re: Gentrification's Price: S.F. Moves: Yuppies In, the Poor Out (1985)

#39
post #21

I often wonder about how sustainable SF’s growth is. Between the issues with housing, rent control, NIMBYism, and poor infrastructure, there has to be a price tag at which this can’t continue. I live in the city, and the quality of living here is terrible compared to other cities. The only thing SF has going for it is the people, but sooner or later the right social pressures could cause a mass exodus, and I wonder w…

You don't have to wonder, you're looking at it.

https://www.sfgate.com/expensive-san-francisco/article/Bay-A...

"The Bay Area exodus is real and ongoing. The region leads the nation for outward migration, a new study has found."

Re: Gentrification's Price: S.F. Moves: Yuppies In, the Poor Out (1985)

#40
post #21

I often wonder about how sustainable SF’s growth is. Between the issues with housing, rent control, NIMBYism, and poor infrastructure, there has to be a price tag at which this can’t continue. I live in the city, and the quality of living here is terrible compared to other cities. The only thing SF has going for it is the people, but sooner or later the right social pressures could cause a mass exodus, and I wonder w…

> but sooner or later the right social pressures could cause a mass exodus Why would that be the case, rather than the social pressures (it sucks to try to live here) reaching a dynamic equilibrium with the economic forces (companies and people are more productive here and will compensate you well for the extra trouble)? I can only think of two reasons for a sudden 'mass exodus': 1. People to 'suddenly realize' that…

Everyone agrees it sucks. The reason they stay is the opportunity.
Post reply on HN