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Apple Will Start Paying Back Taxes to Irish Government Next Month

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Re: Apple Will Start Paying Back Taxes to Irish Government Next Month

#31
post #3

When the people complain about the European union taking too much autonomy, this seems like a pretty good example. It seems crazy to me that Ireland is "not allowed" to set taxes as low as it would like to attract foreign investment. Even states in the US can freely do that!

Your scenario isn't exactly what's happening here. But still, regarding your idea: why not? The Amazon HQ2 campaign is a pretty good example how companies are using tax competition to instigate a race-to-the-bottom. There's no doubt that Amazon would house these employees somewhere . So the payoff is essentially zero-sum. All that's changing is that Amazon is playing different populations against each other to save o…

(You're right, I didn't take in the full subtlety of the Ireland EU situation. The specific EU rule seems much more defensible than my idea.)

But regarding that idea:

You make some interesting arguments in favor of states essentially forming a "cartel" in order to avoid driving taxes too low.

But then how do you decide what "too low" is? Who gets to decide what a reasonable tax rate is? If we're a bunch of people in lonely Isolated State and we vote to set our tax rates very low, does it seem reasonable that some central government strongly controlled by more populated states can say, "no, that's not fair"?

On an emotional level, I'm very sympathetic to the idea that the group of people deciding policy in a region should not be too far removed from that region.

(Of course, that it still might actually result in globally worse outcomes. But it might actually be worth it, just to avoid the unjust feeling of "policy dictated by people far away".)

Even then, I'm not convinced it actually results in worse outcomes. California has very high taxes, and is nevertheless a very popular destination. Some sort of centralized system that required all states to have CA levels of taxation seems like it would almost certainly be worse overall...

(I'm more thinking out loud than trying to make an argument.)

Re: Apple Will Start Paying Back Taxes to Irish Government Next Month

#32
The Government is putting the money in an escrow account until they figure out what to do[0]. The money would cover Ireland’s social welfare bill for a year which is a major cost to the Irish tax payer.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-apple-taxavoidance/ire...

Re: Apple Will Start Paying Back Taxes to Irish Government Next Month

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He and Apple was following the law. If Europe was so angry about Ireland's tax laws they should have stopped it from taking effect in the beginning.

Don’t really get people who defend mega corporations. They played the game and they lost. They should’ve known that the rules can change, especially if someone is cheating or gaming the system.

Where is the evidence that they were cheating the system. Ireland created tax laws, to incentivize companies to come. The European commission comes in and decides that Ireland needs to revert laws that have been on the books for years and collect back taxes on it. This is absurd. How can a company plan for all the potential laws that Europe could reverse. Luckily in Apple's case, they have the funds to pay.

Re: Apple Will Start Paying Back Taxes to Irish Government Next Month

#34
post #32

The Government is putting the money in an escrow account until they figure out what to do[0]. The money would cover Ireland’s social welfare bill for a year which is a major cost to the Irish tax payer. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-apple-taxavoidance/ire...

Well I hope they will be sharing it prorata with the other eu members that lost :-)

Re: Apple Will Start Paying Back Taxes to Irish Government Next Month

#36
post #14

"Apple CEO Tim Cook previously called the decision "total political crap" " Fuck off asshole. Playing to the limits of tax law is fine, but acting outraged when it backfires on you is lame. You played, you lost, suck it up.

He and Apple was following the law. If Europe was so angry about Ireland's tax laws they should have stopped it from taking effect in the beginning.

> If Europe was so angry about Ireland's tax laws they should have stopped it from taking effect in the beginning.

So, poor behaviour is fine, as long as you weren't stopped before you started doing it?

Europe did do something about it, at the speed of international government agreements. You can't honestly be expecting that kind of organization to pre-empt every kind of misbehavior and favoritism inside its member countries.

Re: Apple Will Start Paying Back Taxes to Irish Government Next Month

#37
post #4
post #3

When the people complain about the European union taking too much autonomy, this seems like a pretty good example. It seems crazy to me that Ireland is "not allowed" to set taxes as low as it would like to attract foreign investment. Even states in the US can freely do that!

I don't like some EU taxation rules, e.g. the minimum 15% VAT, which effectively sets an upper bound on government efficiency, but this has nothing to do with that. Ireland is not being penalized for having taxes that are too low, but, in the words of the EC[1]: > Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to > €13 billion to Apple. This is illegal under > EU state aid rules, because it allowed Apple > to pay substanti…

It's interesting that this is true, because (at the state level, not federal) this is table stakes to lure large corporations to locate in one state over another. Just look at some of the pitches cities/states have been making to Amazon for their HQ2, or the Foxconn deal in Wisconsin.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/05/foxc...

Re: Apple Will Start Paying Back Taxes to Irish Government Next Month

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t really get people who defend mega corporations. They played the game and they lost. They should’ve known that the rules can change, especially if someone is cheating or gaming the system.

Where is the evidence that they were cheating the system. Ireland created tax laws, to incentivize companies to come. The European commission comes in and decides that Ireland needs to revert laws that have been on the books for years and collect back taxes on it. This is absurd. How can a company plan for all the potential laws that Europe could reverse. Luckily in Apple's case, they have the funds to pay.

>Ireland created tax laws, to incentivize companies to come.

That makes it seem like the EU decided Ireland's corporate tax rates were too low but that's not what happened here. Ireland gave specific tax considerations to Apple that it didn't give other companies which is illegal in the EU. This is just forcing Apple to compete on a level (tax) playing field with other corporations.

Re: Apple Will Start Paying Back Taxes to Irish Government Next Month

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t really get people who defend mega corporations. They played the game and they lost. They should’ve known that the rules can change, especially if someone is cheating or gaming the system.

Where is the evidence that they were cheating the system. Ireland created tax laws, to incentivize companies to come. The European commission comes in and decides that Ireland needs to revert laws that have been on the books for years and collect back taxes on it. This is absurd. How can a company plan for all the potential laws that Europe could reverse. Luckily in Apple's case, they have the funds to pay.

> How can a company plan for all the potential laws that Europe could reverse. Luckily in Apple's case, they have the funds to pay.

They can't. The world is uncertain. Sovereign Nations legally have the power to do anything they fucking want in the regions they govern (they might be restricted by their own laws and constitution, but it is an internal one).

In this case, it appears that Apple abused certain Irish tax laws to an extreme degree. The EU is well within its rights to punish Apple for doing so.

Re: Apple Will Start Paying Back Taxes to Irish Government Next Month

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t really get people who defend mega corporations. They played the game and they lost. They should’ve known that the rules can change, especially if someone is cheating or gaming the system.

Where is the evidence that they were cheating the system. Ireland created tax laws, to incentivize companies to come. The European commission comes in and decides that Ireland needs to revert laws that have been on the books for years and collect back taxes on it. This is absurd. How can a company plan for all the potential laws that Europe could reverse. Luckily in Apple's case, they have the funds to pay.

appealing to/pleading ignorance doesn't sound like a good excuse for a mega multinational company that employs a legion of tax lawyers and accountants. As previous commenters noted, Apple tried to game the system, but lost. Now, it's time to pay up.
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